tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post9053957062749209778..comments2024-03-09T15:46:44.638+01:00Comments on For what they were... we are: Hungarian ancient DNA and the origins of Central European NeolithicMajuhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-22684196911622505092013-09-19T10:12:45.386+02:002013-09-19T10:12:45.386+02:00Note: the person under the name "barakobama&q...Note: the person under the name "barakobama" is banned for a host of reasons: nordocentrism, homophobia, trollism and annoyance. Most of those reasons are old by several days or weeks but homophobia is a new charge.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-48928853803566307502013-09-19T04:55:02.087+02:002013-09-19T04:55:02.087+02:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Krefterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-27801080224101605502013-09-19T04:33:32.572+02:002013-09-19T04:33:32.572+02:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Krefterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-8995238618816761352013-09-17T06:17:46.888+02:002013-09-17T06:17:46.888+02:00I told you Barack: you're banned, don't bo...I told you Barack: you're banned, don't bother commenting again. I do not need your arrogant patronizing and self-references.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-62536912266336899182013-09-17T04:46:24.852+02:002013-09-17T04:46:24.852+02:00what L3 that would be shocking. I was shocked by C...what L3 that would be shocking. I was shocked by C1 in Pre potery Neloithic Syrai 7,400-6,700bc that is a MOngliod haplogrou how did it get there. Now we are talking about a sub shara AFruican mtDNA haplogroup in Paleoithic Europe how did it get there. Ancient mtDNA shows people were more connected than i excepted and i thing alot of other people too. They did not have direct connection but it trade after trade it traveled far,.Krefterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-63647638351676119642013-09-17T04:43:56.841+02:002013-09-17T04:43:56.841+02:00Like o have been saying we dont have enough mtDNA ...Like o have been saying we dont have enough mtDNA to make huge conclusions. I orignaized all Neloithic and copper age European mtDNa and into regions it totaly shows continunty with modern European mtDNA, When u orignize it all H is over 35% it was the most popular haplogroup even in LBK, There is no bigd issue i dont know why all of Europe has bascially the same haplogroup percentages i dont know how the subclades are connected or if it is like that because of random things if it is not that MtDNA base was set in the Neloithic at least.Krefterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-45340341391932464942013-09-17T04:41:55.285+02:002013-09-17T04:41:55.285+02:00The 7,500 year old Mongliod C1 in north north west...The 7,500 year old Mongliod C1 in north north western Russia near Finland is probably from Kunda culture and the arrival of Y DNA N1c1 in northeastern Europe also Uralic languages So it is not really Paleolithic European it arrived pretty late in only a certain area. In 7,400-6,700bc mtDNA samples from Neolithic pre pottery Syria there was T2b and K1 which both pop up in almost all Neloithic European sites both i think came in the Neolithic overall all T2. There is a chance X2 came to Europe in Paleolithic from the mid east 15,000-20,000ybp that is when it came to North America why not Europe. I didnt know JT* would have been in Paleoithic Europe.<br />'<br />All U5 most U, H1, H3, V(HVO and Hv also existed), and maybe some others their ancestrl forms probably arrived in EUrope over 30,000ybp. V is extremley rare we have very few Paleoithic samples thats deifntley why probably same with H3. Krefterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-21084337641488829112013-09-17T04:35:37.379+02:002013-09-17T04:35:37.379+02:00I agree with u Maju that Neolithic farmers had arr...I agree with u Maju that Neolithic farmers had arrived in Iberia by that time. 7,000ybp Y DNA samples from north Iberia had typical G2a like other Neloithic west Europeans and E1b1b V13 which has been connected with spreading in Europe mainly in the Neolithic. Also his aust dna in globe13 he had 71% North Euro which is the only group to originate in Europe while all others are believed to come in the Neolithic or after. He also had over 20% Med which was dominate in Neolithic samples Otzie 5,300ybp in alps Italy and Gok4 5,000ybp in south Sweden. So he had Neolithic blood.Krefterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-9557554007510849522013-09-17T04:34:17.296+02:002013-09-17T04:34:17.296+02:00I agree with u Maju that Neolithic farmers had arr...I agree with u Maju that Neolithic farmers had arrived in Iberia by that time. 7,000ybp Y DNA samples from north Iberia had typical G2a like other Neloithic west Europeans and E1b1b V13 which has been connected with spreading in Europe mainly in the Neolithic. Also his aust dna in globe13 he had 71% North Euro which is the only group to originate in Europe while all others are believed to come in the Neolithic or after. He also had over 20% Med which was dominate in Neolithic samples Otzie 5,300ybp in alps Italy and Gok4 5,000ybp in south Sweden. So he had Neolithic blood.Krefterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-14848588526696409992013-09-17T04:31:01.460+02:002013-09-17T04:31:01.460+02:00Maju i looked at the UNetice and Urnfield mtDNA we...Maju i looked at the UNetice and Urnfield mtDNA we dont have enough samples to make any conclusions. and there was H in Unetice look it up on ancient Eurasian DNA. I will keep saying this u trust to much on to little mtDNA samples. If u look at FRance in the west 10-15% is under R1b S28(Italo Gaulish), and 10-15% is under R1b L21(dominate in Insular Celts) but they have overal all 60-80% R1b S116. So ur left with 40-50% that is under another subclade most likely R1b Df27 it is probably also very popular in France mainly western France. <br /><br />The Basque ancestors the Aquiteni were surrounded by Celts in Iberia and Gaul. It is possibly after conquered all of west Europe Germanic Italo Celts could adopt a native language and after a few generation not even know it. U should look at what FTDNA says about R1b in west Europe they agree with everything i am saying but are more cautious it is not just me. <br /><br />What i can say is yes Germanic Italo Celts with R1b L11 conquered west Europe only explanation. Same way Indo Iranian conquered INdus valley which is why R1b Z93 is so popular there today. U see the same thing with all Indo European languages they spread by conquering. I know there are other explanation but the same thing happened every time. I will look at other explanations but the end result was almost always the same. The Aquitenni for all we know could have been Celts in culture just not speaking the language according to archaeology that area was in Hallstatt culture Krefterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01055804913528477710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-69274666471711196222013-09-10T13:03:40.110+02:002013-09-10T13:03:40.110+02:00I would not be surprised at all if it has on origi...I would not be surprised at all if it has on origin in local Upper Paleolithic/Mesolithic Iberian groups.jackson_montgomery_devonihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17553257488930856466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-78781229059375404012013-09-10T07:30:32.835+02:002013-09-10T07:30:32.835+02:00I can't say. U5 then used to be everywhere (an...I can't say. U5 then used to be everywhere (and now too but less frequently). I do not know enough to judge that specific subclade. In general and in present time U5b seems to have a more westerly distribution than U5a but most studies do not look at these differences, so I can't say. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-1130600304690118872013-09-10T00:36:52.398+02:002013-09-10T00:36:52.398+02:00Where do you think the U5b2c1 subclade of haplogro...Where do you think the U5b2c1 subclade of haplogroup U5 that the La Brana samples belonged to arose from? Obviously it is of European Upper Paleolithic/Mesolithic origins but I wonder if it would be far Western European?jackson_montgomery_devonihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17553257488930856466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-3432160377168032842013-09-09T22:11:38.339+02:002013-09-09T22:11:38.339+02:00It's possible but the most interesting thing a...It's possible but the most interesting thing about this Hungarian data is that other than H5, which is not a too common haplogroup today, there is not much H in what should be the key transitional population of the Tisza basin (Eastern Linear Pottery, ALPC in the graph, precursor of the Western variant, much more widespread). So I was considering that the excess H that the Western LBK shows may have been incorporated from assimilated aboriginals, much like N1a. <br /><br />Of course it can also be a founder effect but the changes happening at the genesis of, first, the Eastern Linear Pottery and, then, the Western one, splitting from the Balcanic (red-white) Painted Ware precursors talk of a cultural change that may well have been caused by mestizaje. After all those areas of Hungary were the Eastern limit of Magdalenian expansion, so it is the most appropriate place for such a mestizaje to happen. <br /><br />In any case, LBK especially (but also what we know of Mediterranean Neolithic) only incorporated a fraction of the modern frequencies of H, so there are other sources necessarily. These sources are clearly not West Asian, not after Neolithic. They must be Western therefore.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-19972493536370315262013-09-09T21:37:44.821+02:002013-09-09T21:37:44.821+02:00I think that certain subclades of H probably expan...I think that certain subclades of H probably expanded into Europe with West Asian Neolithic farmers or out of the Balkans with Neolithic farmers but as you say we do not know which ones yet.jackson_montgomery_devonihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17553257488930856466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-22567561012624055972013-09-09T06:03:44.352+02:002013-09-09T06:03:44.352+02:00Also U8* (ancestor of U8a?) and U*-CRS have been r...Also U8* (ancestor of U8a?) and U*-CRS have been reported in the European UP. And let's not forget about HV*, C1, L3 found here and there... there's quite a bit of diversity. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-11214892708384607272013-09-09T05:59:32.567+02:002013-09-09T05:59:32.567+02:00Very roughly yes. My level of certainty varies fro...Very roughly yes. My level of certainty varies from lineage to lineage. While not so common today we must include H6 and H17'27 as certain to exist in UP Europe (H6 at least is confirmed). <br /><br />It's also possible that some H lineages expanded with Neolithic, from West Asia or the Balcans, but it is unclear which ones. It seems more and more clear that H lineages overall expanded AFTER Neolithic, while U ones in general receded upon Neolithic arrival, so there were also important rearrangements within Europe after the first Neolithic. <br /><br />But in very rough terms and with due caution, yes.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-52609566627402684802013-09-09T04:43:54.010+02:002013-09-09T04:43:54.010+02:00Okay so would you say that this would make sense w...Okay so would you say that this would make sense when it comes to the origins of the main mtDNA haplogroups found among Europeans today?<br /><br />Upper Paleolithic/Mesolithic: U2, U4, U5, H1, H3, H4, H7 and V.<br /><br />West Asian Neolithic: J, K, T, W and X.jackson_montgomery_devonihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17553257488930856466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-51829692022342332812013-09-09T04:06:13.330+02:002013-09-09T04:06:13.330+02:00And U*-CRS, and at least in one case JT* (Nerja, A...And U*-CRS, and at least in one case JT* (Nerja, Andalusia), C1 (Epipaleolithic Karelia), HV* (Italy), some L(xM,N) (Portugal) and maybe others hard to discern (lots of unclear HVS-I R*). See: http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/p/ancient-mtdna-maps-of-europe.html<br /><br />It seems clear that U subclades were more common in the Paleolithic, but there are regional (and temporal) differences of importance and it is anyhow clear that U was not the only macro-lineage present. Probably W and X, as well as K are of Neolithic origin. There is debate about N1a, whose Neolithic variant is exclusively European today but has not yet been detected among pre-Neolithic peoples. It is also unclear what subclades of H were present but I think that is hardly questionable that at least H1b (Portugal), H6 (Cantabria, surely H6a) and H17'27 (Sunghir) were present in the UP, as well as other undefined H. <br /><br />The issue of H is a methodological blindness problem: most subclades of H are simply invisible testing only for HVS-I, while testing of RFLP (enzymatic) markers may reveal H as such but normally not the subclade. <br /><br />I would think that, in general, the H sublineages shared by Europe and North Africa and apparently of SW European origin (namely H1, H3, H4 and H7, as well as V probably) are Paleolithic in both regions and migrated to Africa at the genesis of Oranian (Iberomaurusian), which seems to be of clear Gravetto-Solutrean derivation (with local Aterian elements as well, some of which may have made their way in the opposite direction, what would explain the ancient presence of some African lineages in Western Iberia). However neither H3 nor V (nor the less common H4 and H7) have been detected as of now before Neolithic times, so there are some reasonable doubts. <br /><br />As for JT, I'd say that J and T as such are of West Asian Neolithic origin, however the very rare JT* found in Paleolithic Nerja and nowadays in some individuals of North Africa and (I believe) Sardinia, may well be aboriginal Paleolithic. <br /><br />It's not too clear and I really wish that aDNA sequencing would always be done testing for coding region markers in order to avoid all this confusion. After all they are drilling extremely valuable ancient remains, so the least we can ask is that they use the most advanced and clarifying methodology. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-68115298066718327562013-09-09T01:12:09.367+02:002013-09-09T01:12:09.367+02:00Maju which mtDNA haplogroups do you believe have a...Maju which mtDNA haplogroups do you believe have an aboriginal Upper Paleolithic/Mesolithic origin in Europe? U2, U4, U5 and certain subclades of H?jackson_montgomery_devonihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17553257488930856466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-37574980407182776612013-09-08T22:54:11.596+02:002013-09-08T22:54:11.596+02:00I suppose the only way to really know for sure is ...I suppose the only way to really know for sure is to test to La Brana samples to see what their diets were largely made up of.jackson_montgomery_devonihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17553257488930856466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-53577695629203980822013-09-07T23:17:48.376+02:002013-09-07T23:17:48.376+02:00The most recent radio-carbon dates show clearly th...The most recent radio-carbon dates show clearly the arrival of Neolithic to the Cantabrian strip by 5000 BCE (7000 BP), just 500 years or so after the Mediterranean coast → http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2011/11/dates-and-patterns-of-cantabrian-strip.html<br /><br />However I will concede that ochre is more typical of Paleolithic burials, I guess. As for the deer canine pendants, I think it is precisely a trait that was also considered quite unusual for the local Epipaleolithic. In the July 3 update to the La Braña entry (http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2012/06/more-north-iberian-epipaleolithic-mtdna.html) I translated the opinion of Pablo Arias, Director of the Prehistoric Research Institute of Cantabria, as reported by Diario de León:<br /><br /><i>Nevertheless, he details that there are some peculiarities making it unique: like the kind of necklace found along individual number 2 and very specially the characteristic of the funerary space: corpses deposited on the floor of a selected hypogeum. "From another point of view, La Braña-Arintero provides another evidence of the spectacular increase in the number of burials in the 7th millennium a.C. and that may relfect an intensification of the territoriality in these societies".<br /><br />Pablo Arias precises that the more striking characteristic of the funerary context of La Braña-Arintero resides in the sepulchral space itself, detailing that it is an exclusively funerary site, with no link to settlements of that age. We see that a remote cavity, apparently not suited for habitation, and the corpses have been placed there in peculiar spaces, well delimited by natural space in the way of niches.<br /><br />And this, as he defends in the article, is a funerary behavior that has no clear precedents in other peninsular contexts and rather reminds to behaviors more common in later periods instead</i>. <br /><br />So there are some colleagues of Sánchez-Quinto who have doubts about the adscription of the La Braña burials to Epipaleolithic. It's not something I just made up. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-64233614965748810962013-09-07T21:58:42.378+02:002013-09-07T21:58:42.378+02:00There is not much reason to suppose that the La Br...There is not much reason to suppose that the La Brana samples are Neolithic. They are most likely Mesolithic in fact. I actually asked the author of that study about it last year. I asked.<br /><br />''I do have a few questions though if you do not mind. Are the the two skeletons that were found at La-Brana Arintero that you got DNA from actually true hunter-gatherers from the Mesolithic period? I have discussed this with some people and a few seem to have some doubts about if they are truly Mesolithic hunter-gatherers or not. Some say that they were not buried like other true Mesolithic burials were. That is they were not interred in the ground. So can you confirm that they are definitely the skeletons of two hunter-gatherers from the Mesolithic period for sure?''<br /><br />And his reply was.<br /><br />''Thanks for the email. We are currently looking for good genomic libraries from la Brana; out intention is sequencing some of them to exhaustion, to see if we can complete the genome of La brana 1.<br />The question is interesting. You are right that the burials are unusual in the Mesolithic context; burials into caves usually have been excavated to place the bodies in shallow funerary structures, although in this case the solid ground simply didn't allow it. We have also some examples in the Cantabrian range of human mesolithic findings without funerary structure, like Poza l'Egua, Colomba, Mazaculos and Cuartamentero, all in Asturias (none so well preserved, of course, and most of them not in caves but in camping sites).<br />Other evidences are: the typical Mesolithic ornaments associated to la Brana 2, the red deer atrophic canines, as well as indication of ocre soil scattered around La brana 1 body. And the dating; Neolithic didn't arrive to Western Iberian until much later. For what I know, the oldest dates in Cantabrian range-Basque region are around 5,500 yBP, that is, about 1,500 years later.<br />Hope this helps''<br />jackson_montgomery_devonihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17553257488930856466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-89926592444780311132013-09-07T20:50:52.420+02:002013-09-07T20:50:52.420+02:00...
"... two R1b from bell BEaker totally ba......<br /><br />"... two R1b from bell BEaker totally backs up with what i am saying"...<br /><br />But the Bell Beaker samples have extremely high mtDNA H frequencies only comparable to what is found in Portugal before and at that time. So the most parsimonious conclusion can well be that the Bell Beaker peoples arrived to Germany from Portugal. Of course we have too many blanks in our knowledge to say that so radically but, if not Portugal, it should be some other Atlantic region: either West France or Denmark or something like that. <br /><br />Whatever the case you can't conflate Bell Beaker with Unetice: they are almost opposite in their mtDNA pools. They are totally different animals!<br /><br />"... Unetice which had Kurgens technically is descended from bell Beaker."<br /><br />No. Bell Beaker is not a Kurgan culture. They may or not be related but definitely BB is not characterized by building kurgans (tumuli). Bell Beaker is not even a culture properly speaking but rather a phenomenon, present in many different cultures as "ethnic minority" (or even just as fashionable cutlery). <br /><br />As I just emphasized the genetic pool of German BB and German Unetice is almost exactly the opposite, even if geographical neighbors: <br />→ H: BB 87%, Unetice 0%<br />→ U(xK): BB: 0%, Unetice: 46%<br />→ J: BB: 13%, Unetice 0%<br />→ T: BB: 0%, Unetice: 31%<br />→ N1: BB: 0%, Unetice 23%<br />→ W: BB: 13%, Unetice: 0%<br />→ X: BB: 13%, Unetice: 0%<br /><br />It's as dissimilar as between an African-American and a Chinese-American random samples in New York. I say mostly as a modern example of how different ethnic and genetic communities can live side by side and still be different for a long time. Eventually they will melt, sure, but it takes time. <br /><br />"Also there are signs of Bell beaker culture spreading bronze to the British isles around 4,000ybp".<br /><br />That's not possible because Bronze was not in Europe (Balcans excepted) yet. Wait another couple of centuries and maybe. English language scholars seem too prone to conflate copper with bronze, possibly because there's no much copper metallurgy in the islands so the Chalcolithic (mostly characterized by other traits like social complexity, apparent hierarchies and long distance trade) is often said to be Late Neolithic and such. <br /><br />In Britain as elsewhere BB is just a minority phenomenon: it does not imply colonization nor anything of the like, just scattered cutlery and some original but minority burials in otherwise persistent pre-BB (in that case mostly Megalithic) cultural contexts. <br /><br />"The fact is that R1b in west Europe (...) no way is it pre Neloithic"...<br /><br />Because you say so? I simply cannot agree with that at all. Molecular-clock-o-mancy has done huge damage to proper comprehension of population genetics, not just in the human species. It's mostly a pseudo-science especially because it is presented as "scientific facts" when it's just a mere speculation. <br /><br />If you want to worship the Molecular Clock, please spare me. <br /><br />... "and shows huge connections with the Spread of Germanic Italo Celtic languages"...<br /><br />That sentence should be written "and shows NO connections with the Spread of Germanic Italo Celtic languages". At least R1b-S116 does not. Probably U106 neither but I'm not as certain (it's less important in any case). <br /><br />"... but i am saying the paternal lineage R1b arrived 5,000ybp".<br /><br />You are almost certainly wrong. Spare me, please.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-52721607530017603122013-09-07T20:50:26.297+02:002013-09-07T20:50:26.297+02:00...
[Basques] "were surrounded by Celts"......<br /><br />[Basques] "were surrounded by Celts". <br /><br />They were not in fact. It's more like Iberian Celts were surrounded by Basques and related peoples like Iberians, Astures, etc. By the time when the La Tène Celts arrived to Western France, the Hallstatt Celts of Iberia were already pretty much displaced to the West (by their own conquering impulse but also by the Iberian reconquest of the NE). Notice that some of the groups that became Celts had a local background and only became Celts in the most shallow of senses, this particularly applies to the plateau culture of Cogotas (whose phase I is pre-Celtic while the phase II is Celtic but obviously the same herder people in nearly everything). In other areas (Portugal) the Celtic conquest was surely more violent and game-changing but not up to wipe all the population. <br /><br />"So what if Estrucans and all those other non Indo European lived in areas with alot of Italo Gaulish R1b S28 it doesnt matter everything else points to it spreading with Urnfield culture". <br /><br />I still think that they arrived from Anatolia (just the elites, of course, not the masses). If you think that Etruscans are directly related to Urnfields, then why do not they spoke anything even remotely related to Indoeuropean and why did they have relatives in the Aegean Sea, just near Troy? <br /><br />Whatever the case, Italy is not important in regards to the expansion of R1b-S116: it's just a secondary destination of the Alpine subclade and has low frequencies of R1b overall. This fact actually fits well with the Magdalenian model because Italy was out of the Magdalenian area altogether. <br /><br />You are not going to persuade anyone of R1b being spread by Indoeuropeans when these have frequencies of 30% (in Italy) and Basques have frequencies of 90%. Let's ignore Italy therefore: it's not relevant and it's too peculiar to shed much light. <br /><br />"It is obvious that R1b L11 is proto Germanic italo Celtic".<br /><br />That's an ethnocentric idiocy that we have already discussed. <br /><br />"And 31 Y DNa samples without R1b in Neolithic west Europe 26 of them coming near basque country around the area"<br /><br />We have already discussed that: Neolithic immigrants obviously were not carriers of R1b. It's just some eight actual lineages, all the rest is redundant. And nobody here would consider the Mediterranean shores to be "near Basque Country": the Mediterranean is another planet altogether, so to say: it's sunny over there, here it rains all the time, its sea is warm and almost tideless, ours is cold and stormy, etc. This seems just a silly prejudice I guess but it actually marks an ecological distinction: no olives here, our grapes are acidic and we traditionally drank cider and grew crops that are not Mediterranean overall, being largely dedicated to pastoralism and fishing. <br /><br />This ecological barrier probably limited the demic expansion of the Mediterranean Neolithic peoples, allowing for ample pockets of other populations which eventually moved back in Eastern direction. It's not clear anyhow when and how but while Basques do show genetic continuity since Early Neolithic, Catalans and Germans do not. <br /><br />You are talking to me about Unetice when this population had no mtDNA H. Don't speculate so much about the little we know of ancient Y-DNA and study the much more we know about mtDNA, please! Sure: German Urnfields do show modern frequencies of mtDNA (at least in one case) but that's what happened among Basques since much earlier, while Portuguese show a decline of H since Chalcolithic (so the Celts came to Portugal and diluted, not expanded, that high H genetic pool). Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.com