tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post8970944472592421050..comments2024-03-09T15:46:44.638+01:00Comments on For what they were... we are: Bonze Age city discovered in Northern ChinaMajuhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comBlogger57125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-60240512331513099182021-09-09T11:47:26.143+02:002021-09-09T11:47:26.143+02:00Thanks for the translation bit. I however don'...Thanks for the translation bit. I however don't see how early Chinese ideographic script was similar to Sumerian Cuneiform, but then of course all scripts seem to ultimately have an ideographic root, maybe you're rather thinking of this general concept?Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-36357078163967845922021-09-09T01:04:11.934+02:002021-09-09T01:04:11.934+02:00For what it is worth... Du in chinese translates t...For what it is worth... Du in chinese translates to main city. And if Erlitou is ancient Xia dynasty that predates Shang Dynasty with its oracle bones, then it would share more than a name in similarity.<br /><br />The script on the oracle bones are very similar to ancient sumerian cuniform and the meaning of the symbols are very similar as well.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15974011721371497463noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-49789265250774760522014-02-28T10:54:54.607+01:002014-02-28T10:54:54.607+01:00Update: sacrificial altar found in Shimao: → http:...Update: sacrificial altar found in Shimao: → http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/98649/8544542.html.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-54688224715431611942012-11-08T19:38:16.715+01:002012-11-08T19:38:16.715+01:00I don't want references. I want you to stop ra...I don't want references. I want you to stop ranting about the clearly Chinese name Shimao (stone mound) with your West Asian unlikely comparisons that make you look like a fool. <br /><br />Insult? Well, you have earned the medals yourself. And you have insisted on the matter in spite of my repeated requests from me for you to simply shut up. <br /><br />Go rant elsewhere. Thanks. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-83186147484783615102012-11-08T19:01:49.251+01:002012-11-08T19:01:49.251+01:00Your insults outweigh a sensible request for refer...Your insults outweigh a sensible request for references to support claims of Sumerian "reconstruction"? DDedenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10033851770461086341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-40138137800267966612012-11-07T20:40:14.609+01:002012-11-07T20:40:14.609+01:00You may not be trying but you are worse that fring...You may not be trying but you are worse that fringe. I truly enjoy when people bring here their knowledge and debate honestly and intelligently: that enriches this blog and I am thankful to those who do it, even when I do not agree with them.<br /><br />But I hate when someone like you just spams his weirdo pseudo-linguistic ideas without making any sense. For me is like going to a conference by, say, Einstein and someone continuously jumping over his shoulder and saying "photon, Solomon" and then again "relativity, Sinai" and so on. <br /><br />It's a total let down. <br /><br />If you keep spamming I will be obliged to enable comment moderation again. So please abstain. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-61048913525353992052012-11-07T19:32:06.657+01:002012-11-07T19:32:06.657+01:00Maju
not trying to be fringe, but is Bonze Age eq...Maju<br /><br />not trying to be fringe, but is Bonze Age equal to Bronze Age? DDedenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10033851770461086341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-2584549327719435522012-11-07T19:30:30.713+01:002012-11-07T19:30:30.713+01:00Thanks, I appreciate the etymological rendering.
...Thanks, I appreciate the etymological rendering. <br /><br />I await a reference for the reconstruction of Eridu.DDedenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10033851770461086341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-27866074490113634162012-11-07T18:01:55.406+01:002012-11-07T18:01:55.406+01:00For the record, murky as Chinese etymology can be,...For the record, murky as Chinese etymology can be, Shimao -- 石峁 -- apparently has a very clear meaning. The first character, 石, means rock or stone. It's an only slightly stylized rendering of the original pictogram, a boulder lying at the foot of a cliff.<br /><br />The second character, 峁, is obscure and seldom used, but has only one meaning: a rounded mound of yellow earth, as found on the Loess Plateau of northern China.<br /><br />The idea of taking the Pinyin Latinization of the Mandarin pronunciation of 石峁, and then looking for similar sounding words in other languages, is so silly on so many levels it's hard to know where to begin. For one thing, it is doubtful that the residents of Shimao village pronounce 石峁 that way, even if they read and can speak Mandarin. For another, the original inhabitants of this Neolithic settlement did not speak Mandarin, either, and in their day it looked like a city, not a rocky mound of dirt, and they would have naturally called it something else.Va_Highlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04671547664669092756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-75416094176401884422012-11-07T17:40:22.951+01:002012-11-07T17:40:22.951+01:00You may feel as you wish. I see myself simply appl...You may feel as you wish. I see myself simply applying Occam's Razor in the course of constructing the best model. As a pretend scientist, I'm fully aware that this model must be wrong, at least to some extent. As the saying goes, if you're right all of the time then you're doing it wrong.<br /><br />I have no particular reason to doubt the prevailing opinion among Chinese archaeologists familiar with the evidence and, with all due respect, you are not giving me reason to do so. When they say that they see evidence of similar metallurgic traditions on both sides of the Altay, I have no particular reason to doubt it. I have no reason to doubt the dates that they're assigning to the relevant population events. There was a preliminary claim by the latest investigating team that the oldest graves at Xiaohe date to ca 2000 BCE, and not 1800 BCE as it currently stands. I have not seen a follow-up but, if true, that fact seems to tip the scales in my favor a bit more.<br /><br />To my mind, the model does make sense. The easiest east-west corridor is the Eurasian steppe belt. Once the western Eurasians had horses and wagons, and the metallurgical and technical skill required to use the two together efficiently, they could cover staggering distances reasonably unmolested, prospecting for mineral resources as they went. To my mind, nomadic peoples have always kept an eye out for useful stones since at least the Paleolithic. It wasn't necessarily some new behavior. It was an ancient behavior made more effective by new technology. Sintashta suggests that they were able to exploit the resources they found on an industrial scale.<br /><br />Understand that I don't really have a dog in this fight. In fact, as I say, I had actually assumed that metallurgy came to the Far East a bit earlier and from the west, from Central Asia and not Siberia. But this is where the data leads us at this point in time.<br /><br />I should say, "<em>most</em> of the data", since there is something that seems to tilt the scales your way: the sheep people.<br /><br />From very ancient times, the Chinese spoke of the <i>Qiang,</i> literally, the "sheep people", that lived to their west in Gansu. The Siba, a succeeding culture to the Qijia, were apparently a sheep people as well, with sheep figuring prominently in their iconography and industry. Though <i>Qiang</i> came to be used for several peripheral groups, archaeologists in China are starting to think that the Siba may have been the original sheep people. Now, what fascinates is that they were highly skilled metalworkers and among the objects produced is a macehead, a rather sophisticated, multi-piece casting, adorned with four projecting goat's heads. The Eastern art expert Emma C Bunker has apparently examined this piece and relates it to other artifacts from Bactria in a previous era. I find that most suggestive.<br /><br />It's possible that early contact was made by a nomadic or semi-nomadic people from Central Asia, who might have also entered the Tarim Basin looking for rocks. As I understand it, the researchers looking at this area are generally open to the possibility of multiple population events.Va_Highlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04671547664669092756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-48785186776603657742012-11-07T10:20:00.123+01:002012-11-07T10:20:00.123+01:00Last extreme warning: DD: if you wish to discuss y...<b>Last extreme warning: DD</b>: if you wish to discuss your fringe linguistics, please do it in your blogs and don't spam mine with junk. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-32773034256506644392012-11-07T01:20:53.645+01:002012-11-07T01:20:53.645+01:00[from wikipedia: eridu
Eridu (Cuneiform: NUN.KI �...[from wikipedia: eridu<br /><br />Eridu (Cuneiform: NUN.KI 𒉣 𒆠; Sumerian: eriduki; Akkadian: irîtu)<br /><br />"According to the Sumerian kinglist Eridu was the first city in the World. The opening line reads,<br /><br />"[nam]-lugal an-ta èd-dè-a-ba <br />[eri]duki nam-lugal-la" <br />"When kingship from heaven was lowered, <br />the kingship was in Eridu."<br /><br />is this faulty? Where is "*njijs"? Is it a variant of NUN.KI?DDedenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10033851770461086341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-81919103974195248612012-11-07T00:36:09.496+01:002012-11-07T00:36:09.496+01:00re. reconstruction: "*njijs" "niece...re. reconstruction: "*njijs" "niece"?<br /><br />I will say that uru/b, elba/ebla/elam etc. etc. derived from apa/campfire.<br />Har-apaDDedenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10033851770461086341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-89739620536542982772012-11-06T22:02:41.491+01:002012-11-06T22:02:41.491+01:00Alright. I see that you have looked a lot on the m...Alright. I see that you have looked a lot on the matter but I can't help feeling that you're leaning the scales of evidence on one direction, favoring earliest possible dates for IE bronze cultures in East Turkestan and questioning the early ones for Chinese bronze cultures in Gansu. <br /><br />I don't know enough to judge so I'll leave it at that. But I don't feel any particular sympathy nor see clear weight of evidence for your model. We must not forget that there is at least one other case of independent invention of bronze tech in pre-Columbian Mexico and also another case of independent invention of steel tech in the Niger basin. Finally it's possible that the notion of bronze tech traveled from West Asia to China prior your Indoeuropean examples that are very borderline in matters of timing. There are clearly other cultural flows from West to East (like the already mentioned Megalithism, which was already fully in the Bronze Age when it arrived to the Caucasus) which are clearly not Indoeuropean and must have flowed by other routes, probably before full IE expansion in Central Asia. <br /><br />But only solid dates and clear material evidence can lean the scales in either direction. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-32310383502864519352012-11-06T16:01:32.793+01:002012-11-06T16:01:32.793+01:00Maju, I think I can address your concerns by answe...Maju, I think I can address your concerns by answering two questions:<br /><br />-- Who were the first people in the Tarim Basin?<br /><br />-- When does the Bronze Age begin in Gansu province?<br /><br />The first is probably the easiest to answer. The prevailing opinion in the Chinese archeological community is that an Afanasevo-related people crossed the Altai Mountains, circa 2000 BCE or a bit earlier, as evidenced by the Ke’ermuqi culture of Xinjiang province. Then circa 1800 BCE some of these people moved further south into the Tarim Basin, as evidenced by the earliest burials in the Xiaohe tomb complex. Tool marks left at this site leave little doubt that these people possessed bronze of some kind.<br /><br />If there were some other people present in the basin at some earlier date, no trace of them has come to light so far.<br /><br />The second question is a bit more open to debate. The first bronze object in all of East Asia is a small knife, 12.5 cm, in a copper-tin alloy cast from a jointed mould. It was unearthed at a Majiayao site in Linjia, Dongxiang county, Gansu, and dated to 2900-2740 BCE. This find, if dated correctly, is apparently unique and I find no reports of any comparable objects found among the Majiayao or their regional contemporaries.<br /><br />All authorities known to me state that the Majiayao were a Neolithic culture and, given that this bronze knife was unearthed in the 1970s, the community has had plenty of time to review and revise that assessment. I find this significant.<br /><br />In contrast, all authorities known to me agree that the Qijia were a bronze culture and probably the first in China. Among the metallic artefacts recovered from Qijia sites there are reports of chisels, axes, knives, awls, chariot ornaments, spoons, mirrors, finger-rings, and rectangular-shaped decorations. Clearly, and I think unambiguously, we have before us a true Bronze-Age people. Their successor cultures, including the Siba, Xindian, Machang, Siwa, and Kayue, spread throughout Gansu and north-eastern Qinghai provinces, were even more intensively involved in metallurgy than were their predecessors.<br /><br />On the whole, I feel the preponderance of evidence suggests that the Bronze Age in Gansu begins with the Qijia culture. If and when slag or moulds or some other incontrovertible evidence of a metal industry is found on a Majiayao site, then obviously I shall have to rethink my position.<br /><br />As far as dating the Qijia culture is concerned, Wikipedia claims a range of 2400-1900 BCE but I'm seeing other reports suggesting 2000-1600 BCE or even later. Nicola Di Cosmo, supposedly a source for the Wiki article, in fact states that the Qijia may date to as early as 2000 BCE. Zhang Zhongpei, who in 1987 proposed a periodization of the Qijia, seemed to think that copper first appears in the material record in the first half of the second millennium, with some contexts extending into the second half.<br /><br />So, once again, given the preponderance of evidence before me, I can state with some confidence that in Gansu provence the Bronze Age begins no earlier than ca 2000 BPE. Combined with the answer to that first question, above, this is entirely consistent with my previous claim, that it seems almost certain that the first bronze people to arrive on the western frontier of the <i>huaxia</i> were Caucasoids that entered the area more-or-less from the north.Va_Highlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04671547664669092756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-12313746446085099782012-11-05T22:34:21.624+01:002012-11-05T22:34:21.624+01:00Haha..thanks for the clear up Maju.Haha..thanks for the clear up Maju.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-52415867601299844422012-11-05T19:05:00.641+01:002012-11-05T19:05:00.641+01:00I'd pay no attention to DD, seriously... on ri...I'd pay no attention to DD, seriously... on risk of all us going crazy. I was about to send all his comments to the spam section but I wanted to let everything super-clear before doing that. <br /><br />Uru is Sumerian for city, iri/ili/uli/uri is an old pan-Mediterranean word for city (Iri-ko, Iri-salem, Ilion, Elis, dozens of Iberian and Basque towns, including modern Basque "(h)iri", Latin urbs, Hebrew ir), even Dravidic has a similar archaic word for city for what they told me (but can't find it right now). <br /><br />But what DD is saying makes zero sense it's a pseudo-linguistic farce that offends intelligence. And that's why I asked him to spare us. <br /><br />So please do not feed the troll. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-49743353497283407932012-11-05T18:54:00.147+01:002012-11-05T18:54:00.147+01:00I think we can greatly converge to an agreement, H...I think we can greatly converge to an agreement, Highlander. For example, I never considered arsenic bronze as proper bronze but a succedaneous low quality alloy, however you may well be right and both alloys being comparable. But crucially I fail to see any evidence for this claim you make:<br /><br />"... it seems almost certain that the first bronze people to arrive on the western frontier of the huaxia were Caucasoids that entered the area more-or-less from the north".<br /><br />When I look for any evidence of bronze in the steppe before c. 2000 BCE, I find none. Instead in China (Gansu) there is some. The main "Caucasoid" culture in the area was no doubt Afanasevo, continued by historical Tocharians (via Karasuk and Tagar cultures, which are indeed Bronze Age but post 1500 BCE). But Afanasevo was a Copper Age (Chalcolithic, Eneolithic) culture, not a Bronze Age one. <br /><br />You mention Sintashta, a culture (?) hard to separate from Andronovo, but they are from c. 2100 BCE on, what is still much later than the Gansu Bronze. Sintashta: 2100-1700 BCE, Andronovo: 1800-1400 BCE. <br /><br />... "earliest arrivals in the Tarim"...<br /><br />The earliest Tarim mummy is also from that same age: c. 2000 BCE. <br /><br />I don't think that the migration of Indoeuropean pastoralists to Altai and nearby areas, which is no doubt one of the earliest Indoeuropean offshoots, has any particular relation with bronze in China. If there would be any relation, it is not apparent at all. <br /><br />Having some Marxist historian background, I do appreciate models that emphasize material conditions and motivations. However I also have a strong Chaotic formation and therefore I can also appreciate the value of randomness and the importance of initial conditions. <br /><br />And with Indoeuropean expansions and other (pre-)historical phenomena, we can often find episodes that look more accidental than material-determinist. For example, why would the Kurgan tribals establish themselves in Altai or at the Elbe later on?, so far away from their ancestors' homeland in Samara and the Cossack steppe? Why? We cannot discern any particular reason but I guess that a mix of chance and availability was what placed them there. <br /><br />Why Rome?, one could ask easily. After all it was a backwater city that owed everything to Etruscans (architecture specially), Greeks (much of their religion and culture) and Phoenicians (to whom they copied the design of their first ships) in a region that was pretty much unremarkable in the previous pre- and proto-history. You cannot explain such things only on mere material-determinism: there is chance and human willpower in that as well. <br /><br />Same for the migrations of IE tribals in Central Asia (or elsewhere): if there were material determinants, we cannot easily identify them.<br /><br />And in any case they do not look like the alleged carriers of bronze tech that you suggest: no evidence for that at all. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-35035941141547093222012-11-05T18:15:39.017+01:002012-11-05T18:15:39.017+01:00Except the "Er" in Eridu is reconstructe...Except the "Er" in Eridu is reconstructed to sound like "*njijs"<br /><br />Sum-njijs-idu sounds kinda odd no?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-6250460411393124052012-11-05T18:11:00.657+01:002012-11-05T18:11:00.657+01:00All you say is nonsense DD. I politely ask you not...All you say is nonsense DD. I politely ask you not make any more such comments of farcical "linguistics" that only offend the intelligence of me and most other readers. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-21461706060377246272012-11-05T17:26:00.122+01:002012-11-05T17:26:00.122+01:00shock: (ME/MDu) eg. cornshock, pile
shoal: shallow...shock: (ME/MDu) eg. cornshock, pile<br />shoal: shallows due to sandbar eg. pile of sand<br />share: parts of whole/shoal/full/pile to distribute<br />DDedenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10033851770461086341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-30756382836386952992012-11-05T17:13:16.328+01:002012-11-05T17:13:16.328+01:00I've heard quite the opposite, that from a met...I've heard <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenical_bronze#cite_ref-Charles.2C_1967_0-3" rel="nofollow">quite the opposite</a>, that from a metallurgical standpoint arsenical bronze is not inferior at all. Presumably, the toxicity of arsenic was a problem, not the quality of the final product. In any case, it is the fact of the sequence itself that is relevant, here. I can't comment intelligently on the European Bronze Age, since to my eye it is even more complicated and contentious than the Eastern Bronze. I've tried to avoid it.<br /><br />I honestly don't know whether the Qijia derive from the Majiayao. It seems plausible. I would certainly assume that the Qijia were a reasonably indigenous people.<br /><br />Thanks indirectly to you, I have been looking at the Bronze Age of this region for a while, now, and tend to agree with at least some of what you propose. Western China was indeed already part of an extensive pre-historic trade network, even at this early date. Jade from Hotan was certainly traded eastward to the heartlands of the Yellow River in the Longshan period and also carried westward to the steppes and the Andronovo peoples.<br /><br />From the literature I've seen, though, it seems almost certain that the first bronze people to arrive on the western frontier of the <i>huaxia</i> were Caucasoids that entered the area more-or-less from the north. They seem to have already been a somewhat mixed population with Siberian and Andronovo-like elements. I suspect that interaction between such peoples and native Neolithic cultures gave rise to groups like the Qijia.<br /><br />I think it's at least conceivable that these early Caucasoids were indeed trading with the BMAC, either directly or through intermediaries. The Sintashta, a contemporary and possibly related culture, seem to have been supplying bronze to the Bactrian Margiana complex and it is tempting to imagine that these earliest arrivals in the Tarim came to such an inhospitable place in search of mineral resources -- such as copper ore, of which there is plenty in Gansu. It could even be that they found jade in Hotan while prospecting for copper.<br /><br />As for a more direct connection between Central Asia and western China, it is there, obviously, but I think it arrives too late for our purposes. When I first looked at the culture of the desert oases, I expected to find that it had continued to leap-frog, from oasis to oasis, all the way to the Tarim Basin. The evidence, though, is lacking and there seems to have been a gap between the pre-historic lapis-lazuli trade of the Pamirs and the pre-historic jade routes of Hotan. What I've seen so far suggests that Central Asian elements did not arrive in the basin until some centuries after the first Caucasoids appeared.Va_Highlanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04671547664669092756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-41311585271667377372012-11-05T17:01:27.256+01:002012-11-05T17:01:27.256+01:00More emotional outbursts. No nonsense rantings so ...More emotional outbursts. No nonsense rantings so far, just ancient river-based links.<br /><br />Shimao/Shomer(Heb)/Sumer-Shinar: piled (cut)stone fort<br />"Zigg-erat" eridu/erech-uruk/jericho/tradepost(store/pile/temple)<br /><br />shor/store/road/route<br /><br />Kalmyk word for salt: shor<br />Hebrew word for watchguarded pile: shomer<br />DDedenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10033851770461086341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-88687645801381769462012-11-04T17:48:06.253+01:002012-11-04T17:48:06.253+01:00One thing must be said about bronze tech: that ars...One thing must be said about bronze tech: that arsenic "bronze" (pseudo-bronze) is quite a mediocre material (better than raw copper surely but still not really that great) and that the availability of tin is almost a must. However tin was and is found in large amounts (as cassiterite) only in very specific locations. <br /><br />Interestingly, Wikipedia has a dedicated entry to tin sources in ancient times: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancient_times<br /><br />It shows that meaningful deposits in the Old World were all concentrated in Europe (Iberia, Britain and Germany mostly) and East Asia (mostly SE Asia, from Yunnan to Malaysia). <br /><br />In the Western Old World, this limited tin availability caused surely Greek colonial adventurerism to the Far West (Hesperides), which is reflected in archaeological evidence of cultural influences and also in some Greek legends, notably two of Herakles' works (and arguably the myth of Atlantis). The collapse of the tin routes in the late 2nd millenium BCE, whose details we don't understand well, surely triggered the research and development of steel in Anatolia, allowing for the beginning of the Iron Age. <br /><br />(Well, that was at least the model before it became evident that the Sahelian Iron Age is older than the Anatolian one by several centuries - but it is still likely that both developments are independent anyhow).<br /><br />I conjecture that the Bronze Age of the steppes was reliant on tin provisions from either Europe or SE Asia, making it less likely a cultural source of anything. But then look at Troy and the Aegean you could say, and I'd say that that role looks in the hands of the Gansu Bronze Age cultures in East Asia, although the detail of all this is not well known to me. <br /><br />It's plausible, I'd conjecture, that Gansu cultures were at one end of some Neolithic precursor of the Silk Road, not necessarily going through the steppes but rather through the BMAC (Uzbekistan, etc.), as happened with the historical Silk Road, and that may be related with the flow of know-how (bronze tech) and ideology (megalithism and other pre-Indoeuropean elements like the <a href="http://www.euskomedia.org/ImgsAuna/23046401.gif" rel="nofollow">swastika</a>?) between West Asia and East Asia. In turn it is possible that Gansu became a provider of Yunnanese or Burmese tin to peoples in the steppary belt.<br /><br />I know it's a lot of speculation but one thing seems clear Gansu Bronze pre-dates all other except the West Asian one, which seems roughly contemporary. Steppe Bronze instead seems very conventional in dates, beginning c. 2000 BCE, not before. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-77593692006448476472012-11-04T17:15:39.897+01:002012-11-04T17:15:39.897+01:00I'd be very surprised to find Bronze Age metal...I'd be very surprised to find Bronze Age metallurgy in the Eurasian steppe before 2000 BCE when in Europe (excepted some areas near the Aegean) it begins c. 1800 BCE. For what I can read in Wikipedia, Central Asian Bronze does not begin before c. 2000 BCE. Instead in China there is some bronze tech since much earlier: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majiayao_culture" rel="nofollow">Majiayao culture</a> (Upper Yellow River, ~3100-2700 BCE), which would be contemporary from the West Asian arch of earliest Bronze at global level. <br /><br />Qijia (~2400-1900 BCE) would seem as derived from Majiayao, maybe via Banshan (~2600-2300 BCE), right? The dates for the Seima-Turbino phenomenon (~1500 BCE, ~2000 BCE the oldest ones I have read) seem quite more recent than the Gansu Bronze and at best contemporary of other Bronze Age cultures in Europe and East Asia.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.com