tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post8407099236897573496..comments2024-03-09T15:46:44.638+01:00Comments on For what they were... we are: Bronze Age rock art in Azores Majuhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-59759458764567912432012-09-05T22:46:27.421+02:002012-09-05T22:46:27.421+02:00I meant that IMO it is perfectly possible that som...I meant that IMO it is perfectly possible that some ships could travel from Iberia to Ireland or Cornwall, or from Scotland to Denmark, etc. without coasting at all. I think that happened often enough in the Chalcolithic - even if it is not strictly necessary to explain known findings. <br /><br />I think that with the collapse of the last Atlantic European civilizations after the Bronze Age (Celtic invasions, c. 700 in Iberia, c. 300 in the Atlantic Islands; destruction of Tartessos by the Phoenicians), oceanic navigation became less common and well known. Phoenicians still sailed those waters but with the Romans and the Dark Ages navigation must have receded (excepted the Vikings). <br /><br />In a sense, in the late Middle Ages navigation had to be reinvented. It took some 1500 years to be able to do again what Hanno the Navigator had done in his time. <br /><br />So I think that in some aspects earlier Western sailors compared favorably to Medieval ones, at least until the Portuguese took to the seas (and with the already mentioned Viking exception). Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-91089590704298481752012-09-05T22:13:27.749+02:002012-09-05T22:13:27.749+02:00..."only coastal navigation, cabotage, was po......"only coastal navigation, cabotage, was possible before the navigational advances of the Middle Ages."<br /><br />Established trade routes differ from navigational success over unknown waters. If you are using middle age mariners as the baseline, then of course earlier voyagers would not compare well. But there were certainly voyagers traveling overseas before that, and every survivor was a successful navigator.DDedenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10033851770461086341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-43061004346310847562012-09-05T19:29:06.044+02:002012-09-05T19:29:06.044+02:00A late comment, but these claims about the Azores ...A late comment, but these claims about the Azores have been done for a very long time - centuries really. It's not terribly unlikely that some ancient coastal shipfarers could have been blown off course, ending up on the Azores, but after all the previous claims have ended up unconfirmed, I wouldn't hold my breath than these will be end up confirmed either. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-73026399136662643052012-09-02T01:04:10.912+02:002012-09-02T01:04:10.912+02:00What do you mean?What do you mean?Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-66517684523077217772012-09-01T23:01:14.560+02:002012-09-01T23:01:14.560+02:00I must say, certainly wrong. I must say, certainly wrong. DDedenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10033851770461086341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-51399744089112159792012-08-29T08:19:54.064+02:002012-08-29T08:19:54.064+02:00It is assumed by many people that only coastal nav...It is assumed by many people that only coastal navigation, cabotage, was possible before the navigational advances of the Middle Ages. That's probably wrong.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-7374950982050949212012-08-29T08:18:38.834+02:002012-08-29T08:18:38.834+02:00No, mr. Narcissist, the remark was not directed at...No, mr. Narcissist, the remark was not directed at you. The World and this blog do not rotate around you.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-40791487082984228482012-08-29T06:11:21.002+02:002012-08-29T06:11:21.002+02:00"These findings strongly suggest that the nav..."These findings strongly suggest that the navigation skills of Bronze Age peoples of the Eastern North Atlantic (Western Europe, NW Africa) were much more advanced than we usually admit". <br /><br />I presume that remark was directed at me. I have never doubted the Bronze Age sailing ability of the Mediterranean and nearby people. What I continue to question is the effectiveness of Paleolithic Mediterranean peoples' boating ability. terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-55929785913473661912012-08-29T03:37:39.001+02:002012-08-29T03:37:39.001+02:00The connection with Hy Brasil is quite plausible b...The connection with Hy Brasil is quite plausible but who knows... really. <br /><br />As for West African Bronze Age trade, I'm not aware it was ever claimed before. North African trade was enough to provide ivory and ostrich eggshells (ostriches existed in Southern Morocco and parts of Egypt), while the amber probably came from Northern Europe.<br /><br />Arrival of Megalithic influences to West Africa (Senegal) only seems to exist since the Iron Age, more in line with other late Megalithic scatters to India or Korea. Without Megalithism it seems less likely that there was Copper Age trade and hence Bronze Age one (which in the Atlantic is the decadent heir of Megalithism and Bell Beaker). Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-44326185473874546872012-08-29T02:44:39.296+02:002012-08-29T02:44:39.296+02:00Navigation to the Azores that early, by a populati...Navigation to the Azores that early, by a population sufficient sophisticated that the navigation must have been planned rather than merely a ship set adrift in a storm whose crew gets lucky, also suggests that Bronze Age maritime trade with West Africa sounds a lot more plausible than it would have in the absence of this evidence.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08172964121659914379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-632085784389077562012-08-28T22:17:39.835+02:002012-08-28T22:17:39.835+02:00Great find!
The Azores - or some part of them - p...Great find!<br /><br />The Azores - or some part of them - probably correspond to the island that Saint Brendan the Navigator listed on his 6th century maps as "Ui Breasail" - which he named after the clan/family of the same name. Brendan reached this place by in a Currach (small Irish boat) made of a timber frame covered in oxhide. Later European maps based off of his discoveries showed some island to the extreme South West of Europe and labelled it "Hy Brasil" - a rendition of the same name. When the NE coast of South America was later discovered it was thought to be Hy Brasil, and that's how Brazil (aka Brasil) gets its name.<br /><br />But the point being that a simple boat that had been in existence for thousands of years could make the journey almost half way across the Atlantic, almost 1,000 years before Columbus did. Therefore the island could certainly have been visited before that time, or after too.<br /><br />Ui Breasail<br />http://www.libraryireland.com/names/irishclans/ui-breasail.php pconroyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10312469574812832771noreply@blogger.com