tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post7550136780596376594..comments2024-03-09T15:46:44.638+01:00Comments on For what they were... we are: Chimps and humans diverged some eight million years agoMajuhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-32920360638171793272011-11-16T05:26:47.342+01:002011-11-16T05:26:47.342+01:00A clear clue of how the reconstruction was tendent...<b>A clear clue of how the reconstruction was tendentious is the nose: Pestera skull has a pear-shaped nose, which is typically Eurasian, while they put on it an African nose</b><br /><br />The breadth of the nose aperture is not a clear-cut indicator of the breadth of the external nose. Read about forensic reconstruction and you'll find that the external nose margins are aligned with the upper canine teeth, and that this facial reconstruction is correct according with this criterion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-76800317016955455292010-11-09T04:34:36.215+01:002010-11-09T04:34:36.215+01:00c. 20 Ka years ago. The exact earliest dates are s...c. 20 Ka years ago. The exact earliest dates are slightly older. <br /><br />The earliest Solutrean in Europe has the following C-14 dates:<br /><br />Laugerie Haute (Dordogne): 21,710 BP (+/- 650 years).<br /><br />Les Mallaetes (Valencia): 20,890 BP (+/- 300 years).<br /><br />These dates come to be c. 25,000 years ago after calibration, just 1000 or 2000 years after the arrival of Gravettian to the area, which is a late phenomenon in comparison with Central Europe and Italy, but seems to have sealed AMH colonization of Mediterranean Iberia in a strongly definitory manner. <br /><br />I can't recall the exact details right now for Oranian but, from memory, it is from c. 22-20 Ka in the westernmost sites, which are also the oldest ones. <br /><br />A second phase of Iberian Solutrean (full Solutrean) is dated to 20,180 BP, with its later sub-phase defined by back-tipped points, possibly an African influence (back-tipping is typical of North African Paleolithic since Aterian and otherwise unknown in West Eurasian Paleolithic I understand). <br /><br />Right after this an sterile layer at Les Mallaetes is defined by geological indicators of extreme cold, signaling the worst of the LGM. <br /><br />The later phase (Upper or Evolved Solutrean) is continuous with the previous one (again back-tipped, winged points). It has three sub-phases, the latest being Gravetto-Solutrean. <br /><br />Notice that the reference sites for this sequence (Les Mallaetes and nearby Parpalló) are intrusive in an older and contemporary Gravettian context, which eventually shows itself as strong enough to recycle Solutrean into an hybrid form characteristic of the Iberian province. <br /><br />It is in this period also when the Iberian region (excluding always the Cantabrian strip) seems to have the greatest population of all the Paleolithic (cf. Bocquet-Appel), probably because the LGM was relatively favorable for the hunter-gatherer ecology in the area.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-68654914216433113232010-11-09T00:07:35.314+01:002010-11-09T00:07:35.314+01:00[About y-dna M81] ... I have arrived to the hypoth...<i>[About y-dna M81] ... I have arrived to the hypothesis that it may have been spread by founder effects at the Solutrean genesis, which is related with the Oranian genesis in North Africa.</i><br /><br />I got conflicting results on the dates of Solutrean and Oranian. What time exactly are you talking about?aargiedudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02885756901119408472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-9889406029495499412010-11-08T09:41:10.199+01:002010-11-08T09:41:10.199+01:00aargiedude:
eurologist, do you by some other scre...aargiedude:<br /><br /><i>eurologist, do you by some other screename in other genetics/anthropolgy forums?</i><br /><br />No, and I have hardly time to visit more than a couple of boards occasionally, anyway.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-2058852439423169402010-11-08T08:01:59.675+01:002010-11-08T08:01:59.675+01:00I want to add something about the North African ge...I want to add something about the North African genetic markers in West Iberia: one rather hard to explain fact is that E1b1b1b-M81 (but also other clades such as E1b1b1*) is found at rather high frequencies in Asturias and at least to some extent Cantabria, part of the Franco-Cantabrian Paleolithic region. <br /><br />This is very hard to explain by Neolithic or post-Neolithic founder effects, so I have arrived to the hypothesis that it may have been spread by founder effects at the Solutrean genesis, which is related with the Oranian genesis in North Africa. <br /><br />As you may know the Solutrean of SE Iberia is almost as old as that of Dordogne but then evolves to an original form known as Gravetto-Solutrean, apparently because Gravettian influence was too strong in the earlier population. This is the techno-culture that probably affected North Africa at the genesis of Oranian culture. <br /><br />In the Cantabrian strip this is the only Upper Paleolithic cultural phase where Iberian techno-cultures make an impact but they make it on Asturias and not on the rest, which feed from Aquitanian Solutrean instead. So here is the best founder effect situation I have found to explain E1b1b1 in Asturias.<br /><br />The extension to Cantabria may have several explanations, as Asturias and Cantabria have been often linked culturally but my best hunch is that in the subsequent Magdalenian period, when populations were still low enough to allow for such important founder effects easily, we see two facies in the Cantabrian strip and in this period Cantabria and Asturias share one to the exclusion of the Basque area (incl. Eastern Cantabria). <br /><br />For whatever is worth.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-37406668334879309822010-11-08T06:23:00.312+01:002010-11-08T06:23:00.312+01:00@argiedude: thanks for your appreciation. I know t...@argiedude: thanks for your appreciation. I know that the skulls issues is complicated but one has to look at it from all sides, not just emphasizing some stuff like Cro-Magnon 1 or whatever. <br /><br />@Terry: <br /><br />"I certainly doubt it is a product of Islam. However it may be more recent than the Neolithic. Perhaps a product of Phoenician expansion, or some similar previous expansion".<br /><br />No, because these Eastern Mediterranean (and not North African) arrivals were very localized in SE Iberia (modern Cádiz is the westernmost ever Phoenician colony and one of their oldest ones too) and along the coast. If we'd be discussing a small place like Ibiza then you might be right but they could never had an impact in large portions of the Iberian peninsula, much less in areas that show no signs of colonization like Western Iberia. <br /><br />Even if late Phoenicians under the Barcids conquered much of the peninsula, that was a one-day flower, earlier they only controlled a handful of towns along the coast. While there are some earlier Eastern Med influences in SE Iberia these do not look like colonizations but more like mere cultural influences on a local substrate, probably caused by trade. They attest (even if often very weakly) the Eastern Med Bronze Age trade connection but little else. <br /><br />"The so-called 'sea people' allied with Libyans quite often when attacking Egypt"...<br /><br />The so-called Sea Peoples (several) are a complex story and they may have been Iberians or other Megalithic groups (Sardinians? Sicilians?) in some cases. Though most probably they were all peoples from the Aegean, including Greeks, Lycians, etc. Mycenaean Greeks were for sure a bit like "Vikings" of their time, conquering Cyprus, setting colonies in South Italy, destroying Troy, probably founding the Philistine historical ethnicity of Gaza, trading with Iberia and influencing parts of it. <br /><br />But simultaneous to that Mediterranean frenzy of the Bronze Age Greeks, or rather some centuries earlier, there was also an expansion of Megalithism into the Western/Central Mediterranean (North Africa, parts of Italy). This I interpret in agreement with the legend of Atlantis, where that area is exactly what is attributed to the Atlantean empire, which the Greeks allegedly fought against. I also place here the legends of Herakles in the Hesperides. A very interesting even if obscure period but one in which Iberia was still not yet a mere colony but an active center of civilization. Excepting the early Modern Age, probably Iberia has never been as important as in the period between 2600 and 1200 BCE. Sadly we only have archaeology an very vague mythical references. <br /><br />"The Atlantic coast may have been too rough to exploit ecologically until boating had reached an adequate level".<br /><br />What a pain you are with "boating levels". It is obvious that Europeans navigated all along the Atlantic coast since at least 3800 BCE: Megalithism is quite obviously a "sailors' culture" and is first of all an Atlantic culture. Longboats are known in Denmark since Epipaleolithic and Mediterreanean Neolithic, which reached to Portugal, is demonstrated to have practiced open seas navigation, not mere coasting.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-9115619546745210552010-11-08T05:54:52.655+01:002010-11-08T05:54:52.655+01:00"I think there are so many "Iberian"..."I think there are so many "Iberian" faces"...<br /><br />I'm thinking in one type that makes me think of ancient Iberians for some reason. Seems more common in the Eastern coasts and is very much Euro-Med, with emphasis in the Med part of the word. But never mind. <br /><br />Check the categories <a href="http://leherensuge.blogspot.com/search/label/vitamin%20D" rel="nofollow">vitamin D</a> and <a href="http://leherensuge.blogspot.com/search/label/human%20pigmentation" rel="nofollow">human pigmentation</a> (and <a href="http://leherensuge.blogspot.com/2009/06/role-of-geography-in-human-adaptation.html" rel="nofollow">this article</a>, which is mislabeled) at Leherensuge for further info on what I just said.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-75900992897880875612010-11-08T05:47:51.331+01:002010-11-08T05:47:51.331+01:00"White skin appears to be only 8.000 years ol..."White skin appears to be only 8.000 years old"<br /><br />Nooo!!! That's an atrocious misunderstanding. One of many alleles related to pigmentation is said (molecular clock lies) to be around that age (early Holocene). But that does not mean "white skin", which is not white and which is described by so many genes that we only know a few.<br /><br />So no. Europeans (and West/Central Asians) must have evolved further the ability to depigment (tan/untan) as part of adaptations to less sunny climates. As people moved north (but notice most movements are actually east/west, with some inclination) they found themselves in situation where the alleles for darker skin tones were sickening (specially for infants and pregnant women, where fish was not the daily diet specially) and were selected against, soon what we call "white skin" (or something very close) must have appeared and I'd dare say that Pestera cu Oase was in that early range because he lived almost as far north as any human in the Ice Age (Romania and Hungary are not a sunny countries and are at the latitude of Paris and Beijing). <br /><br />If Oase's clan were "darky", their children would have suffered and often died... unless their diet was very rich in fish (which is about the only way to get vitamin D other than by "photosynthesis" at the skin). The same can be said of people living at Altai, etc. For that reason soon people had to become "white" or live largely on a fish diet (the Palolithic equivalent of modern vit. D supplements). And even in the latter case, there was always an advantage in being whiter, so this trait was no doubt selected for very soon. <br /><br />Another thing is maybe the more extreme variants of whiteness: ultrablonds that can barely tan... this is probably the trait that was selected for at the end of the Ice Age (some 10 thousand years ago), as people colonized the Far North in large numbers. Because the vitamin D conditions over there are even harder, demanding such adaptation.<br /><br />Vitamin D has driven pigmentation selection. Obviously, this selection pressure is weaker in the sunny Mediterranean than in the cloudy Atlantic and is even much stronger around the North and Baltic seas and places like that. Areas that, would not be because of the Gulf Stream "central heating miracle", would be as thinly populated as Siberia and the Arctic are. <br /><br />So I think that "whiteness" is very old in Europe, because the peoples living at the Rhine-Danube area really needed to be quite white, and this is true also for all Europe, specially the Atlantic parts of the Franco-Cantabrian region, which are covered in clouds most of the time, specially in winter. <br /><br />Bilbao is at the latitude of New York, while the parallel of Brussels goes through mostly semidesertic areas out of Europe, such as Canada or the Siberian steppe). You really need special adaptations to lack of sun in such high latitudes, specially for a Tropical-evolved species as ours. We may have overcome the need for fur with clothing but about the vitamin D conditionant we could do little but eat a lot of fish... or evolve "whiteness", which by the way is not a European-specific trait (NE Asians are quite white, even if their pigmentation patterns are somewhat different and related genes have evolved largely in parallel).Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-28820681724887865432010-11-08T04:12:22.054+01:002010-11-08T04:12:22.054+01:00eurologist, do you by some other screename in othe...eurologist, do you by some other screename in other genetics/anthropolgy forums?aargiedudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02885756901119408472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-45139483533879047952010-11-08T03:56:36.248+01:002010-11-08T03:56:36.248+01:00"A key issue seems to be anyhow that North Af..."A key issue seems to be anyhow that North African markers in Iberia, notably Y-DNA E1b1b1b (M81), are concentrated not in the South but in the West (Portugal and surroundings). This for me is suggestive of a Paleolithic (or at most Neolithic) founder effect, and not the over-simplistic explanation of Islamic presence". <br /><br />I certainly doubt it is a product of Islam. However it may be more recent than the Neolithic. Perhaps a product of Phoenician expansion, or some similar previous epxpansion. The so-called 'sea people' allied with Libyans quite often when attacking Egypt, so I presume there was quite a degree of contact between the groups in the Mediterranean at the time. The Atlantic coast may have been too rough to exploit ecologically until boating had reached an adequate level.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-42796180061012602542010-11-08T00:39:21.974+01:002010-11-08T00:39:21.974+01:00Based on Heraus' photo-composites "I trie...Based on Heraus' photo-composites "I tried to figure out if there were patterns of pigmentation in Europe (as it was as easy as to pick the color and measure the hue and such) but, while I did find some variability I could not find any organization to such patterns. I did measure red-yellow variation (actually oscilating between around a much whitened red-orange median hue) but it seems to be chaotically distributed. "<br /><br />Pigmentation can vary a lot between individuals of the same family (at least in Europe).<br /><br />"How extended is that out of East Asia? No idea but I imagine that at least somewhat. After all it's likely it's just a gene taken from the ancestral African pool and established by founder effect (plus mild adaptive effect maybe)."<br /><br />White skin appears to be only 8.000 years old. Before that, Europeans had yellowish or brownish skin. <br /><br />"People has confused what really happened: North Africans are much more Iberian than Iberians are "North African. Even if both flows are most likely extremely old and related (bidirectional but not equal flow). Also I think that Neolithic influence in Mediterranean Iberia, which may be some 20% (at least in Valencia), and seems to originate in the Eastern Mediterranean (Greece, Anatolia, Cyprus...) may be confused with North African elements. "<br /><br />Very interesting. It can be also that these "Khoisanid types" originated in Iberia and then migrated to N.Africa, or perhaps originated in West Asia and migrated to both, Europe and N.Africa during the neolithic.<br /><br />"But the typical Iberian face is I think a European one essentially, albeit a regionally distinct one."<br /><br />I think there are so many "Iberian" faces that it's nearly impossible to tell which looks more European and why.<br /><br />"In the second at least means Neolithic origin for the hypothetical family."<br /><br />I bet they're of recent origin (less than 7.000 years) because we've seen many linguistic and cultrual replacemtns in the last 2.000 years to accept that a language have been there for 40.000 years, but anyway, no one knows; other links with Caucasian languages have been proposed.᧞eandertalerinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12545788589913543964noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-10559339025407109812010-11-08T00:15:28.400+01:002010-11-08T00:15:28.400+01:00Great thread. I'm thankful for all your observ...Great thread. I'm thankful for all your observations, Maju, on ancient human cultures and fossils. Where I wouldn't know what to think about the argument that paleolithic human fossils are different from modern humans, you clarified the situation very well.aargiedudehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02885756901119408472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-48544837181564170482010-11-07T23:48:06.980+01:002010-11-07T23:48:06.980+01:00Regarding U5 and H, a possibility I have in mind i...Regarding U5 and H, a possibility I have in mind is that maybe H is Aurignacian and U Gravettian. But that would fit poorly with the reality of Iberia and Italy, which had strong Gravettian impact (instead the FC region was rather refractory to Gravettian it seems).<br /><br />Also the lack of Paleolithic mtDNA H in Central Europe fits bad with the appearance of H expanding precisely from that area (maybe most diverse).Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-47955970031462544792010-11-07T23:42:15.413+01:002010-11-07T23:42:15.413+01:00"It was proposed that Iberians were a North A..."It was proposed that Iberians were a North African culture who migrated through the strait, and that has been noted by some linguistic similarities between Iberian, Basque and ancient Berber languages"...<br /><br />People has confused what really happened: North Africans are much more Iberian than Iberians are North African. Even if both flows are most likely extremely old and related (bidirectional but not equal flow). Also I think that Neolithic influence in Mediterranean Iberia, which may be some 20% (at least in Valencia), and seems to originate in the Eastern Mediterranean (Greece, Anatolia, Cyprus...) may be confused with North African elements. <br /><br />But the typical Iberian face is I think a European one essentially, albeit a regionally distinct one. <br /><br />Also there's no apparent relation between Berber and Iberian/Basque - though there may be some words that have crossed the strait (either are Oranian substrate in Berber or traveled in the Megalithic Era). In the first case, that would support Vasco-Iberian being a Paleolithic language family. In the second at least means Neolithic origin for the hypothetical family.<br /><br />"I read a theory purposing that some ancient tribes migrated from north Africa to southern Europe less than 9.000 years ago"...<br /><br />"Chorradas". I have read such idiocies and are nothing but pseudoscience. There's absolutely no archaeological evidence for any such migration. <br /><br />However, there was some speculation that Andlusian Neolithic was older than Cardium Pottery in Iberia and had no known origin, what might suggest an unknown North African source (or whatever else). But Zilhao dismantled that idea, according to him it's just Epicardial that has been ill-dated. <br /><br />"But not in southern Europe. Maybe these hunter gatherers came from different places?"<br /><br />This is not clear. Maybe there were just different fixation events in Central and SW Europe. U5 seems old in SW Europe (attested in Epipaleolithic Portuguese and Neolithic Portuguese and Basques, as well as modern populations) but at rather low frequencies. U4 is lacking and seems to be restricted to Northeastern Europe. More strange is that H is not attested in Central/North Europe before Neolithic but maybe its has not been searched for enough. Between the Elbe and the Pyrenees there's a big gap in aDNA testing (with just some exceptions that clarify little). <br /><br />"It seems to me that population movements across Europe and between Europe and West Asia/ North Africa have been very complex in the last 10.000 years".<br /><br />IMO not. But some areas (Central Europe) may have seen more than one demic replacement wave.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-10900024596590191282010-11-07T23:42:04.500+01:002010-11-07T23:42:04.500+01:00I would not say that Mas is exotic for Europe, nor...I would not say that Mas is exotic for Europe, nor that he has "yellowish skin". <br /><br />Based on Heraus' photo-composites I tried to figure out if there were patterns of pigmentation in Europe (as it was as easy as to pick the color and measure the hue and such) but, while I did find some variability I could not find any organization to such patterns. I did measure red-yellow variation (actually oscilating between around a much whitened red-orange median hue) but it seems to be chaotically distributed. <br /><br />Excepting the many that were not notable at all, the "yellow" (actually orangeish) skins might predominate in the North/Eastern Iberian peninsula (Basques, Soria, Murcia) and SW France but also in several districts of Britain which seems the hotspot of reddishness at the same time (along Galicia and NE France). Other yellowish groups are Frisians, South Italians and Poles, while other reddish trends have been detected in Macedonia. <br /><br />I could not find any clear pattern really and the apparent patterns may be caused by mere randomness. Also a blond "yellowish" Frisian looks very different than a brunet "yellowish" Murciano. Same for blond and brunet "reddish" cases. However these trends of pigmentation might hypothetically be related with blond/red hair variance, where dominant black hair does not hide it. <br /><br />I say because blond/red hair are defined by different pigments: eumelanin and pheomelanin. Eumelanin is more common in general (hence blond hair is more common than red hair) but in Europe and some parts of Africa pheomelanin may be somewhat dominant or at least present in some populations. <br /><br />It's difficult to say because pigmentation in East Asians has not been researched much yet but it seems that their yellow tinge is caused by a pigment that protects against skin cancer. How extended is that out of East Asia? No idea but I imagine that at least somewhat. After all it's likely it's just a gene taken from the ancestral African pool and established by founder effect (plus mild adaptive effect maybe).Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-13775270230821722422010-11-07T21:35:45.740+01:002010-11-07T21:35:45.740+01:00"A key issue seems to be anyhow that North Af..."A key issue seems to be anyhow that North African markers in Iberia, notably Y-DNA E1b1b1b (M81), are concentrated not in the South but in the West (Portugal and surroundings). This for me is suggestive of a Paleolithic (or at most Neolithic) founder effect, and not the over-simplistic explanation of Islamic presence."<br /><br />I agree. <br /><br />"Looks like a bit way to the North for such an African colonization but who knows? Unless the people you are telling are recent arrivals from Andalusia... but then you said they have been there for centuries."<br /><br />No, they're not Andalusians. Moreover, I've never seen an Andalusian who looked like them. <br /><br />"Anyhow, I think I have spotted also similar a "transmediterranean" type in Occitania occasionally. Who knows? Maybe even colonies of legionaries or slaves from the Roman Empire... "<br /><br />Hmm... I noticed that these traits aren't so rare after all. Many catalans also have slanted eyes and yellowish skin to a various degrees. See for example Artur Mas, a catalan politician:<br /><br />http://s01.s3c.es/imag/_v2/ecodiario/espana/225x250/artur-mas3.jpg<br /><br />I think that the population of legionaries and slaves had to be very large to explain what we see. No one knows, but I've seen some portraits of ancient Iberians who also resemble these people a lot.<br />It was proposed that Iberians were a North African culture who migrated through the strait, and that has been noted by some linguistic similarities between Iberian, Basque and ancient Berber languages, although that's very controversial, and genetics don't seem to support this.<br />I read a theory purposing that some ancient tribes migrated from north Africa to southern Europe less than 9.000 years ago, which would explain some similarities, but again, genetic evidence don't support any large contribution.<br /><br />"But the main lacking is happily extrapolating results to the rest of Europe. That cannot be done, specially when we know that the haplogroup changes apparently introduced by the Neolithic populations in Central Europe, did not stay, but were replaced again later on... from the West, it seems."<br /><br /><br />"Seems so. It still is to some extent, even if it may have been displaced towards the NE somewhat."<br /><br />But not in southern Europe. Maybe these hunter gatherers came from different places?<br /><br />It seems to me that population movements across Europe and between Europe and West Asia/ North Africa have been very complex in the last 10.000 years.᧞eandertalerinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12545788589913543964noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-88947631608453150372010-11-07T18:29:24.053+01:002010-11-07T18:29:24.053+01:00"if most studies seem to point out that there..."if most studies seem to point out that there was no major gene flow across the Gibraltar strait"<br /><br />Not major but minor indeed. <br /><br />A key issue seems to be anyhow that North African markers in Iberia, notably Y-DNA E1b1b1b (M81), are concentrated not in the South but in the West (Portugal and surroundings). This for me is suggestive of a Paleolithic (or at most Neolithic) founder effect, and not the over-simplistic explanation of Islamic presence.<br /><br />But anyhow there can be localized remnants of Berber colonies from the Muslim period too. <br /><br />"I'm from Anoia"...<br /><br />Looks like a bit way to the North for such an African colonization but who knows? Unless the people you are telling are recent arrivals from Andalusia... but then you said they have been there for centuries. <br /><br />Anyhow, I think I have spotted also similar a "transmediterranean" type in Occitania occasionally. Who knows? Maybe even colonies of legionaries or slaves from the Roman Empire... <br /><br />A good place to explore these matters and discuss these issues may be the blogs of Heraus (Anthroeurope, Anthrofrance, etc. - check in the right bar's blogroll), who is doing a great job documenting European (mainly) phenotype diversity. <br /><br />"It seems that there are lots of North Africans in the Iberian Peninsula :)"<br /><br />Psah... Notice that North Africans are at least 25% (maybe as much as 50%) European by mtDNA. And this Afroamerican guy does not look particularly like North Africans, just that some traits, which are Tropical African in fact, make him look that way a bit. He looks much more European than North African but his Tropical African side makes him look falsely North African (somewhat). <br /><br />Anyhow, the North-African specific markers in Iberia, while real, are very small, even where they are most notable, as in Portugal. <br /><br />"It's a very famous paper, I'm sure you've read it:<br /><br />http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/1176869"<br /><br />Bramanti. I haven't read it because it's pay per view and I'm poor. But I know the results, thanks to Jean Manco's excellent compilation of aDNA (see links in the side bar). <br /><br />The research by this team, including previous work by Haak, which Bramanti recycles, is interesting, as provides some nice data. However most of the "hunter-gatherer" aDNA comes from groups of very peripheral zones at the Baltic, often even from populations well in the Neolithic Age (though they may have been semi-foragers). Out of that area all relies on a small sample from Swabia, which is supportive but not conclusive. Also U5/U4 are still very important haplogroups in the Baltic and in all Eastern Europe even into Siberia. <br /><br />But the main lacking is happily extrapolating results to the rest of Europe. That cannot be done, specially when we know that the haplogroup changes apparently introduced by the Neolithic populations in Central Europe, did not stay, but were replaced again later on... from the West, it seems. <br /><br />So it's a paper that has some interest but the conclusions must be criticized a lot. <br /><br />"It appears that haplogroup U/U5 was very common in central/northern Europe".<br /><br />Seems so. It still is to some extent, even if it may have been displaced towards the NE somewhat.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-35930502070850697192010-11-07T16:38:48.883+01:002010-11-07T16:38:48.883+01:00"Which paper exactly? I think I know which on..."Which paper exactly? I think I know which one you're saying but can't recall). "<br /><br />It's a very famous paper, I'm sure you've read it:<br /><br /><a href="" rel="nofollow">http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/1176869</a><br /><br />"See this 2009 Leherensuge recap for European aDNA."<br /><br />Very amazing maps, thank you. It appears that haplogroup U/U5 was very common in central/northern Europe.᧞eandertalerinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12545788589913543964noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-22415401489679239002010-11-07T16:23:59.687+01:002010-11-07T16:23:59.687+01:00"Of Moroccan or otherwise Mediterranean origi..."Of Moroccan or otherwise Mediterranean origin, I'd say. The description of that phenotype sounds like former tyrant of Morocco Hassan II. This is a very common North African subtype, which seems to have Khoisanid affinities and is more common in the south, around Marrakesh. Again a case of old shared ancestry probably, though if they make up a distinct population, maybe a genetic study is worth the effort."<br /><br />Wow, very interesting!! <br />In fact, I've seen some Berbers who look like the persons I mention. They're quite different (phenotyphically) from the "common" European, in my opinion, and yes, they resemble Chinese people sometimes, or better, Khoisanids (I heard they have some affinities with East Asians). They're like remmants of an old substrate, because yellowish skin, flat noses, etc, are quite rare where I live. Most people look like "normal" southern Europeans, so I wonder how and when these Moroccan peoples reached the Iberian peninsula (if most studies seem to point out that there was no major gene flow across the Gibraltar strait), and also North Africa, if they appear to share some affinities with Khoisanids.<br /><br />"Where are you from exactly? It seems there's a lot of more or less North African types there (though that Harper is almost in my range: he looks more European than African overall). And that's interesting from an anthropological viewpoint. Anyhow it seems you are talking of the amazingly rich Mediterranean phenotype diversity and nothing else (and mostly of African influences in fact)." <br /><br />I'm from Anoia which is located in Central-Eastern Catalonia, near the coast. It's all very interesting, but I wonder, that if most studies seem to claim that Europeans are a very homogeneous population, how these north African/African peoples got to southern Europe? Apparently they're genetically European, and not rare at all in the Mediterranean, but I'm sure that an English or Polish person would never classify as European these Khoisanid-looking Catalans.<br /><br /><br />"But I bet his hair is not as thinly curled, which is a most rare trait i Europe"<br /><br />You're right, I forget to mention that his hair is curly but not so much.<br /><br />"but otherwise he's in my range too and I know people who are even closer in the detail. Not surprising as one can hunch he has at least 75% European ancestry (much whiter than Obama)"<br /><br />It seems that there are lots of North Africans in the Iberian Peninsula :)<br />As you mention Obama, I have to add that I know a guy who looks exactly like him (he has tanned skin, also), but he's fully Spanish/Catalan.<br /><br />"However the North African types may be more specific of Iberia, where this influence may be deeply rooted. "<br /><br />Yes, it seems that the relationship between the two have been very complex, although most studies I've read don't seem to conclude this.᧞eandertalerinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12545788589913543964noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-5995686329705365262010-11-07T11:07:04.751+01:002010-11-07T11:07:04.751+01:00I agree- we need better visualizations of multi-di...I agree- we need better visualizations of multi-dimensional plots.<br /><br />Just for Central Europe, we need to at least distinguish the following ancient contributions:<br /><br />- SW Europe<br />- Italian<br />- Central Europe / LBK<br />- ancient Scandinavian<br />- ancient Baltic<br />- Finnish<br />- Slavo-Baltic<br />- recent Slavic from East of mainstream Ukraine<br />- old Ukraine<br />- Caucasian<br />- SE European/old Balkan<br />- Levantine (which may be a mixture of several groups - such as Arabian/ South Mediterranean/ Ethiopian) - but that difference matters little for Europe<br /><br />That's about a dozen, or so...eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-26056164969619224852010-11-07T10:14:41.182+01:002010-11-07T10:14:41.182+01:00I see what you mean now. The "divide" be...I see what you mean now. The "divide" between Germans and Poles is very thin anyhow: they do not overlap (with one exception) but they are adjacent. <br /><br />Anyhow, that paper has some limitations because it is extremely centered in Estonia (1090 samples, 1/3 of all). It's surely great to understand and contextualize Estonians but less good to understand overall European structure. <br /><br />The whole PC2 is "kidnapped" by the Finland-Latvia/Lithuania dichotomy, which is surely irrelevant for Europe overall, so the rest of Europeans appear as a linear cline between the East Baltic and South Italy (excepting Swedes, because they tend towards Finland).Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-43137492130751653022010-11-07T10:02:56.720+01:002010-11-07T10:02:56.720+01:00"I guess if I had used <> instead of []..."I guess if I had used <> instead of [], my link experiment would have worked... ;)"<br /><br />Yeah, feel free to use this thread as "sand box" a bit ;)<br /><br />Thanks for the link in any case.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-24817927375535402122010-11-07T09:25:25.188+01:002010-11-07T09:25:25.188+01:00I guess if I had used <> instead of [], my l...I guess if I had used <> instead of [], my link experiment would have worked... ;)eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-75435517860974846692010-11-07T09:23:56.255+01:002010-11-07T09:23:56.255+01:00"I haven't seen that one. Looks interesti..."I haven't seen that one. Looks interesting (link?)"<br /><br />I think [a href="http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0005472"]one of them[/a] has been frequently circulating around here:<br /><br />http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0005472<br /><br />That one places Hungarians as a subset straight in the middle of Southern Germans, Czechs towards (but inside) the "east" of the German range, and Poles east of all three of them.<br /><br />Of course, Poles themselves also have an old Baltic component in the sense of Lithuania and Latvia - which in 2 PC plots gets intermixed with their common Slavic component.eurologisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03440019181278830033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-20176070308862556962010-11-07T08:31:18.370+01:002010-11-07T08:31:18.370+01:00"I don't know how to post a link".
..."I don't know how to post a link".<br /><br />No big deal. Use the following HTML code but change "[...]" by "<...>":<br /><br />[a href=LINK]TEXT[/a]<br /><br />I think the "a" refers to text and the "href" to the hyperlink. It's the most complex HTML I ever use. :)<br /><br /><b>Boldface</b>: [b]TEXT[/b]<br /><i>Italic</i>: [i]TEXT[/i]<br /><br />Images (not allowed in comments): [img src=LINK /]<br /><br />Cheers. :)Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.com