tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post4250642539393471340..comments2024-03-09T15:46:44.638+01:00Comments on For what they were... we are: Dalmatia as a central hub for South European NeolithicMajuhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-91201406535951308712011-01-09T12:46:29.038+01:002011-01-09T12:46:29.038+01:00@Terry:
"Presumably because these 'agric...@Terry:<br /><br />"Presumably because these 'agricultural newcomers' were the first people there".<br /><br />In the late UP there were people in that area. There's some rock art from that period in Dalmatia. They were in the Italian province, I understand, as the Adriatic was then much smaller.<br /><br />I would take this claim with a good pinch of salt because of what I just said and also because there are almost no antecedents (other than Otzaki "Pre-Sesklo"). Also this culture was clearly prone to assimilate natives elsewhere, so they may have been partly native since the beginning. <br /><br />...<br /><br />@Gioiello:<br /><br />"Probably these Dalmatians were J2 and E-V13 (and perhaps some kind of I)"...<br /><br />Almost exactly my thoughts. E-V13 seems concentrated towards Albania, J2 is more widespread and probably the safest Neolithic marker, I2a is a clade I consider likely to have spread with Cardium Pottery as well, specially in its Sardinian and SW European variant (I2a1). <br /><br />"... but where R1b could come from if not from Italy?"<br /><br />I'd say (for R1b1b2a1, the specifically European clade) Hungary in the Aurignacian (or Gravettian?) period. North Italy did play a role in the flow of these cultures towards the West. Then the two main clades spread from the Franco-Cantabrian region (Magdalenian possibly) and the North Sea area (Hamburgian and Ahrensburgian I guess). <br /><br />North Italian R1b seems mostly related to the Swiss, excepting some 20% that seems either older (L51* and L11*, a small but interesting fraction) or arguably Neolithic (L23*, this one could be also Paleolithic). <br /><br />See <a href="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_x6Y4ZgFsZdY/THgPi2xnlbI/AAAAAAAAAZA/fQ9CRVXNv2A/s1600/R1b+sub-structure+V2.png" rel="nofollow">this map</a>. <br /><br />Not sure if you mean Italian R1b or in general.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-83607473666991312862011-01-09T11:12:39.072+01:002011-01-09T11:12:39.072+01:00Probably these Dalmatians were J2 and E-V13 (and p...Probably these Dalmatians were J2 and E-V13 (and perhaps some kind of I), but where R1b could come from if not from Italy?Gioiellohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13578860964923773647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-22402956313568392011-01-09T10:14:32.618+01:002011-01-09T10:14:32.618+01:00many locals here have their origins in Dalmatia. ...many locals here have their origins in Dalmatia. my understanding is that it consists mostly of the islands off the west coast of the Balkan Peninsular. <br /><br />"Aside from farming, Neolithic villagers in Dalmatia were 'oriented toward the sea, and enjoyed extensive long-distance contacts'" <br /><br />Makes sense therefore. <br /><br />'Their discoveries support the idea that agricultural newcomers to southern Europe built villages without encountering local nomadic groups, Moore asserts". <br /><br />Presumably because these 'agricultural newcomers' were the first people there. Yet another example of the lack of efficient boating in the Mediterranean before the Neolithic. <br /><br />"it all began in Dalmatia and nearby areas (Bosnia, Montenegro, coastal Albania)" <br /><br />So quite possibly it spread to the mainland after becoming well established on the islands, by which time immigrants could easily out-number any 'local nomadic groups'.terrythttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17327062321100035888noreply@blogger.com