tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post2460563075488387233..comments2024-03-09T15:46:44.638+01:00Comments on For what they were... we are: The Mal'ta aDNA findingsMajuhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comBlogger84125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-81922664310869909892014-01-22T02:25:29.329+01:002014-01-22T02:25:29.329+01:00The more data you present the more it weighs in fa...The more data you present the more it weighs in favor of your position, which was already the obviously more likely one anyway. I had just thought Q1a2 was only found in America, the far recesses of north Eurasia...and Yemen. So I thought maybe some sample Amerindians (carrying Q1a2c--yet to be discovered an Amerindian lineage) had been brought to the Mediterranean world by one of the following: Minoans/Phoenicians/BellBeakerites/Tartessians/Spaniards/Themselves, with a trace of descendants ending up in Egypt en route to Yemen. (In no way was I postulating a non-Siberian source for Native Americans; don't know how that was inferred.) Anyway, I apologize if I tarnished your blog with too-wild a speculation. I guess it would have been more appropriate on one of those Atlantis/Mu blogs.John Rudminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11589752671578961154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-16202262408875264822014-01-22T00:08:43.956+01:002014-01-22T00:08:43.956+01:00The distribution of Q1a2 per Wikipedia (mostly cur...The distribution of Q1a2 per Wikipedia (mostly curated by Ebizur, who knows his trade quite well) is:<br /><br /><i>Q-M346 (L56, L57, M346) — Found at low frequency in Europe, South Asia and West Asia. It has been found in Pakistan,[25] Saudi Arabia,[26] the United Arab Emirates,[29] India,[25] Tibet,[14] and Bali.[17] Found with high frequency 25-50% in Turkmens and Turkmenistan Confused with R1b1 because of P25 , [1]<br />→ Q-L53 (L53, L54, L55, L213)<br />(...)<br />→ Q-M323 (M323) — It has been detected in Yemenite Jews.[39]<br /></i><br /><br />So there's absolutely no reason for Q-M323 to have migrated from Central Asia with all that Q1a2* in Arabia, Iran, etc. It was <b>only</b> Q1a2a (L53) which migrated to America (via Siberia, I guess), M323 is just some of that Q1a2* that stayed put, which happens to have been described as distinct haplogroup probably only because it's present among certain Jews. <br /><br />It is true that there is not a Siberian nor Central Asian (other than Tibetan) trail of Q1a2a-L53 but barring the extremely unlikely "Solutrean hypothesis" or UFO abductions, and considering that its close relatives Q1a* Q1a1-M120 are rather common in NE Asia, plus the new findings re. the Mal'ta boy, I'd rather support the parsimony of a Siberian route for proto-Amerindians, with a founder effect for that particular subclade of Q at the end of the process. <br /><br />cf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q_%28Y-DNA%29#Subclade_DistributionMajuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-53910301213000154602014-01-22T00:07:30.002+01:002014-01-22T00:07:30.002+01:00[As for my "e.g. Huns, Khazars, Turks" r...[As for my "e.g. Huns, Khazars, Turks" reference, I should have said "there are plenty of historical connections from Siberia/Central Asia to THE MIDDLE EAST (in general)", i.e. it gets you close.]John Rudminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11589752671578961154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-65050812395940438692014-01-21T23:11:54.157+01:002014-01-21T23:11:54.157+01:00If I haven't made my disclaimer clear enough a...If I haven't made my disclaimer clear enough already, I'm just having fun with this one. My basic logic is, IF Q1a2 split apart NOT at 50kya in West Asia, BUT sometime later in Siberia (one branch going to America, another to Scandinavia), then there has to be some means by which one branch gets all the way to Yemen. (All the other Q1 branches anywhere near that far south are Q1b, aren't they?) Certainly, there are plenty of historical connections from Siberia/Central Asia to Yemen to explain it--e.g. Huns, Khazars, Turks...but they don't seem to have left a trail of Q1a in between AFAIK. So you have this isolated Q1a branch way down there in Yemen, which is so far from Siberia, certainly it is still more likely to have traveled overland across Eurasia, but couldn't there be SOME chance it came around the other way? Maybe just in post-Columbian times. That's all. Again, I just find it fun to wonder, don't see why that should offend anyone. (btw, Do you recall hearing some anecdote that something like 1% or 2% of Greeks carry a Q lineage common among Mayans? Can't seem to find it anymore, though.)John Rudminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11589752671578961154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-28349582089505211832014-01-20T12:11:10.265+01:002014-01-20T12:11:10.265+01:00I don't see how Egypt can explain Siberia or h...I don't see how Egypt can explain Siberia or how can post-Neolithic alleged trans-Atlantic trade justify Paleolithic speculations. Keep your feet on the ground, please and try to contain your wild imagination a bit when discussing real world matters. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-19357244716775560182014-01-20T07:36:51.546+01:002014-01-20T07:36:51.546+01:00Q1a2c: One of these is (geographically) not like t...Q1a2c: One of these is (geographically) not like the others! Not expecting you to agree here, but I'm just waiting for Q1a2c to turn out to be from South/Central America, and accompanied the Olmec? nicotine and coca that turns up in Egyptian mummy hair.John Rudminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11589752671578961154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-78846574000740565342013-12-16T03:16:40.323+01:002013-12-16T03:16:40.323+01:00Going back to M8, it'd be just one mutation yo...Going back to M8, it'd be just one mutation younger than R, i.e. roughly the same as R0. Let's see:<br /><br />L3→→→→→→→M8<br />L3→→→→→→→R0<br /><br />That should mean that they might have coalesced in similar times, some 50 Ka ago, I guess. But of course there's not hardcore certainty in any molecular clock estimate, it's just an educated guess and little more. <br /><br />This is my educated guess.<br /><br />"you find the following age estimations:<br />R South Asia 62300<br />R East Asia 54300<br />M South Asia 47970<br />M East Asia 57300"<br /><br />I just can't agree, very especially not regarding M. <br /><br />"... in the North Asia".<br /><br />Such a big place!<br /><br />"M8 is also found in Koreans and Japanese."<br /><br />M8a is most common among Japanese in fact. <br /><br />"You say that the precursors of M8/C and A came from South China".<br /><br />The only known precursor of M8 is M and that was almost certainly in South Asia. The precursor of A (5 mutations upstream) is N and most likely coalesced in SE Asia. <br /><br />What I say is that in their "invisible" stem stages they were carried via what is now China, mostly because Central Asia and Siberia was then part of the Neanderlands: closed territory to H. sapiens. Instead in East Asia there is abundant data on early H. sapiens presence. It's a matter of chronology and shortest possible route, and also of detecting other "sister" lineages with less lengthy stems sprouting in the region one after the other. <br /><br />M8 can't have arrived via Central Asia because its arrival to the East is parallel to the first incursions of H. sapiens to West Asia, not yet even Central Asia surely. <br /><br />You can fantasize all you want but I have gone through all this discussion a zillion times and you are making me think of retirement. Sincerely, if you want someone who agrees with you I'd recommend you to begin emailing with Terry T. I'm not going to agree with that, no way. <br /><br />"I do not see so much mtDNA flow from the Tropics or Southeast China"<br /><br />I have done this exercise many times in the past. It's all around my blogs. I'd recommend you do it. Get the PhyloTree, get some sources on the distribution of mtDNA haplogroups like my little wiki (see links page for both) and, counting from L3, plot, using one map for each transition (= approx. time unit), plot the haplogroup nodes that coalesce at each time. Then join the dots. <br /><br />When you have done that at least once, come back and tell me if your hypothesis still holds up. <br /><br />So far I have got from you what I wanted: something boring to get sleepy and go to bed. Thanks.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-89847372801092536332013-12-16T02:53:35.330+01:002013-12-16T02:53:35.330+01:00"So, you think that Q-M3 was in Beringia 33 k..."So, you think that Q-M3 was in Beringia 33 ka".<br /><br />Actually, if I transmitted that idea, I might have exaggerated the note a bit. My estimate for the Beringia period is more like the LGM, some 10,000 years later probably, with some uncertainty. But I really think that Q1a is of about 50 Ka ago, because it is geographically split between the overall Q origin area of South-Central Asia and the destiny region of North Asia (and America). The eastwards migration is apparent in the archaeological record since c. 30 Ka, so probably the arrival to Beringia is of a later date, maybe towards 20 Ka BP. <br /><br />"That is very close to the Soares age estimations of C (28 ky) and A (29 ky)". <br /><br />I would have to check for a better estimate but I really think that those ages seem a bit too young in any case. I have in the past estimated the first expansion to NE Asia associated to those haplogroups (as well as D and other M8) with the approximate date of c. 50 Ka ago also, although some lineages may be a bit younger. Anything less than 30 Ka sounds a bit suspicious. And generally all standard age estimates don't fit the thumb rule of the OoA being as old as 100 Ka or even a mere 80 Ka: they invariably assume the OoA to be around 60 Ka ago because someone made such estimate a decade ago and it'd be to risky to contradict the literature. They are career academics, not intellectual pioneers, daring too much could cost them the swimming pool or whatever.<br /><br />"I do not understand your claim that M expanded in Asia long before R even existed almost certainly".<br /><br />Count the mutations from the root. I use coding region mutations only (HVS is too messy). Let's see (each "→" represents one c.r. transition<br /><br />L3→→→M<br />L3→→→→→N→R<br /><br />Simple enough, right? <br /><br />Unless the molecular clock is terribly irregular even in the short distances, and therefore utterly useless, M must have coalesced (and sent some 40-50 sublineages all around Asia and Australasia in a big bang of sorts) at about half the time (counting from Africa's L3 shared root) that it took for R to do the same thing (or rather a weaker resemblance). <br /><br />Assuming that L3 coalesced c. 125 Ka ago (at the beginning of the Abbassia Pluvial and the preliminary OoA into Arabia) and that M coalesced c. 100 Ka ago (when the archaeology of today shows that the Eurasian expansion was actually active) then R may have coalesced some 75 Ka ago. This, with some minor adjustments would make N and R "explode" (not at all as strongly as M in any case) after the Toba catastrophe, what makes some good sense IMO, because it would have opened some niches for them. <br /><br />But in any case N and R look clearly expanding some time after M did, what makes total sense, because their star-like structures (which should indicate rapid expansion) are much more modest than that of M. Only H can compare with M in this aspect and is still second to it.<br /><br />That's truly a prolific grandmother!Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-62559117826699594172013-12-15T22:23:32.343+01:002013-12-15T22:23:32.343+01:00So, you think that Q-M3 was in Beringia 33 ka. Tha...So, you think that Q-M3 was in Beringia 33 ka. That is very close to the Soares age estimations of C (28 ky) and A (29 ky). <br /><br />I do not understand your claim that M expanded in Asia long before R even existed almost certainly, if you do not mean that M expanded in East Asia a few thousands of years before R. In Table S2 (http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2013/06/10/1306043110.DCSupplemental/pnas.201306043SI.pdf), you find the following age estimations:<br />R South Asia 62300<br />R East Asia 54300<br />M South Asia 47970<br />M East Asia 57300<br /><br />I definitely agree with you that M8/C and A arose in the North Asia. M8 is also found in Koreans and Japanese. You say that the precursors of M8/C and A came from South China and I say that they may have come from Central Asia. In both cases the root is not found in the Tropics.<br /><br />I do not see so much mtDNA flow from the Tropics or Southeast China, if you so wish, to the Arctic North (excluding, of course, the initial settlement of the Northern areas). A, C and D lineages are all more frequent in the north than in the south, and probably spread from north to south (as A, C and D lineages in India). MtDNA B seems to be more southern and has probably spread from south to north, but also from north to south. Also F has spread from south to north, but F is not ancient in the Arctic areas. Also in Western Eurasia, northern lineages U4 and U5 are more frequent in the north than in the south (Africa, Near East) and did not spread from the Near East to Scandinavia.<br />The Arctic lineages of Koryaks, Chukchi and Itelmen are all restricted to Arctic or subarctic areas: A2, A8, C4b, C5, D3, D2, D4a, D4h, D4m, D4o, G1b, Z1a, Y1a. They are not found in Southeast Asia.<br />Kristiinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994105875605082112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-31336672871036394772013-12-15T19:49:39.574+01:002013-12-15T19:49:39.574+01:00... "undefined N* is found also in India"...... "undefined N* is found also in India"...<br /><br />Nice to know. The relative lack of N in South Asia has always been a bit of mystery, considering that the Western N(xR) sublineages almost certainly went through it before reaching West Asia. R is clearly most diverse in South Asia but N(xR) was a bit more problematic, as its origins in any case point towards SE Asia. <br /><br />"In my opinion, tropical East Asians look very different from Eskimos, and Southern or Central Native Americans all look very different from both above".<br /><br />Maybe. I thought you meant the so-called Mongoloid phenotype, which has been often argued to originate in Siberia and what not, precisely as supposed adaption to cold climates, something we know now it's surely not the case at all because the bulk of the genetic flow was from South to North and not vice versa. <br /><br />"Yes, I think that Klyosov's ages used to be very much in the low end, but now his age estimations for Q and C3 seem to be quite well in line with the archaeology". <br /><br />"Q 33 Ka" is not in agreement with the archaeology I know. That would rather be Q1a2a1a1-M3 if anything. Q must be quite older than 47 Ka to fit with the archaeology. Q1a could be for example 50 Ka old. So Q may well be 60 Ka old (just my educated guess anyhow - but surely much better than his). <br /><br />People who do age guesstimates without solid archaeological references are like someone trying to juggle balls without arms: the balls unavoidably fall all to the ground. And a lot of people does that, what is a total waste of time in the best case and source of confusion in the worst. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-15528693685676560692013-12-15T19:49:20.698+01:002013-12-15T19:49:20.698+01:00"If yDNA Q arose in Aghanistan, it could easi..."If yDNA Q arose in Aghanistan, it could easily have carried a precursor of U and M8"<br /><br />MtDNA U and M8 are completely different animals: M8 is an Eastern (NE) Asian and Native American lineage with some distribution in North and Central Asia and even as far as Europe. I have no doubt that M8 arose in NE Asia, not too far from modern Beijing (in fact M8a is almost only found over there). M8 has nothing to do with South Asia (barring the occasional C/Z infiltration). There are more than 40 basal sublineages of M (the biggest star-like structure of the human mtDNA tree), so I don't see why you would imagine that listing some of them would somehow "magically" produce a relation with M8. Afghans do have M8 but it is almost only of the Z sublineage and is concentrated among Hazaras (who also show other East Asian "recent" influences via Central Asia. <br /><br />U instead is a Western lineage and very clearly so. Totally unrelated. <br /><br />The only known precursor of U is R-root, but the only known precursor of M8 is M-root. M expanded in Asia long before R even existed almost certainly: the slim majority of M sublineages are centered in South Asia, while the rest are in East Asia and in some cases Australasia. For some reason there is no M basal sublineage centered in West Asia (M1 is derived from a South Asian upper tier lineage), only R and N derived ones (and not many: about 20-25% for R and probably quite less for N). That's because the first expansion after the OoA took place in Tropical and Subtropical Asia, East of the Neanderthal dominated lands of the West. Only at the end of this process, probably because of having reached some density limit, people began looking further into less hospitable lands such as the cold NE Asia (M8 & co.) or the Neanderlands of the West (U & Co.) but these two, even if parallel, are different processes. <br /><br />→ http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2013/06/synthesis-of-early-colonization-of-asia.html<br /><br />"It is interesting that according to Ebizur, the following N types are found in Hunza Burusho: 1/44 = 0.023 N(xA, I, N1, N9a, R, W, X)"<br /><br />Probably N2(xW). Both N2 and W appear to me rather centered towards AfPak but I'm not certain of their exact origins. Whatever the case they are NOT precursors of A, exactly the same that N9 or N11 are not either. A is just another of many (18?) N sublineages and its long stem suggests it coalesced only late and already close to its NE Asian destination, where it enjoyed a bout or two of expansion. <br /><br />Sorry but in my understanding you are sinning of mtDNA ignorance. Barring maybe some rare clade the only West Eurasian aboriginal N-derived lineages are N1 (incl. I), N2 (incl. W), X and, via R, R0 (incl. HV), JT, U and some other very rare clade like R2 or R3 (not sure which one right now). In addition to that there is M1 (derived from a South Asian lineage) and probably some, very old but uncommon outside Arabia Peninsula, L(xM,N) lineages, either a residue from the OoA or some later movements, and then some much more recent Siberian lineages of East Asian origin like M8 (incl. CZ), A or D. All the rest of the diversity is East of Iran or South of the Sahara. <br /><br />You want to radically displace the center of diversity and logical origin of A and M8? Sorry but I'm not going to accept that easily, certainly not with the kind of poor arguments you are using here. You'd need much more than maybes and wishful thinking. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-61743763262788170732013-12-15T18:09:49.259+01:002013-12-15T18:09:49.259+01:00You say that “C. 30,000 years ago, Upper Paleolith...You say that “C. 30,000 years ago, Upper Paleolithic ("mode 4") technology with roots in Altai reached other parts of Siberia, Mongolia and North China, from where it expanded eastwards and southwards gradually in a process of, probably, cultural diffusion.” 30 000 is before the Ice Age.<br /><br />It is not only one particular subclade in Native Americans. Apart from M3 there are:<br />Q1a2a1b Z780, L191: Native Americans<br />Q1a2a1c L330: Mongols, Kets, Khantys, Tuvinians, age estimation in Mongolia is 6.5 kya (http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0071390)<br /><br />Q* has been found in Afghanistan, as Wikipedia says “Important in Afghanistan, paragroup Q-M242 (xMEH2,xM378) was found at 16.3% in Pashtun people”, but according to Wikipedia, Indian paragroup* is not necessarily Q-M242 (xMEH2,xM378), as all current branches of the Q-M242 tree were not tested.<br />The recent Afghanistan mtDNA paper gives detailed mtDNA frequencies of Afghanistan Pashtuns, including the following South Asian -looking haplotypes (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0076748):<br />M2a 1.1%<br />M3a 3.3% (highest concentrations in west and NW India, Pakistan)<br />M4 3.3% (M4a Gujarat, Pakistan, Meghalaya)<br />M37 1.1%<br />M5a’d 1.1%<br />M33a 1.1%<br />Other M 2.2%<br />R2 4.4% (Iran, Baluchistan (Pakistan), Volga basin, India)<br />R5 2.2%<br />U2a 2.2%<br />U2b2 5.6%<br />U2c’d 2.2%<br /><br />M 12.1%, R(xU) 6.6%, U 10.1%<br /><br />If yDNA Q arose in Aghanistan, it could easily have carried a precursor of U and M8 to the North, as India is full of mtDNA R and M. The origin of a precursor of A in Afghanistan is more difficult to perceive. It is interesting that according to Ebizur, the following N types are found in Hunza Burusho: 1/44 = 0.023 N(xA, I, N1, N9a, R, W, X), 1/44 = 0.023 W, 1/44 = 0.023 X, 6/44 = 0.136 N(xR).<br /><br />On the basis of this paper (http://www.krepublishers.com/02-Journals/IJHG/IJHG-08-0-000-000-2008-Web/IJHG-08-1-2-001-256-2007-Abst-PDF/IJHG-08-1-2-085-08-336-Maji-S/IJHG-08-1&2-085-08-336-Maji-S-Tt.pdf), undefined N* is found also in India, although not present in this Afghanistan paper.<br /><br />In my opinion, tropical East Asians look very different from Eskimos, and Southern or Central Native Americans all look very different from both above.<br /><br />Yes, I think that Klyosov's ages used to be very much in the low end, but now his age estimations for Q and C3 seem to be quite well in line with the archaeology. <br /><br />Kristiinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994105875605082112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-68944696834628517262013-12-15T16:57:35.744+01:002013-12-15T16:57:35.744+01:00BTW, I finally finished with those elusive East As...BTW, I finally finished with those elusive East Asian ancient Y-DNA maps: http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2013/12/ancient-east-asian-y-dna-maps.htmlMajuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-21391802753928297432013-12-15T16:50:46.279+01:002013-12-15T16:50:46.279+01:00"Klyosov gives the following age estimations&..."Klyosov gives the following age estimations"...<br /><br />I don't care much about age guesstimates. BTW, Klyosov wasn't that guy who even Dienekes (one of his main paladins once) eventually broke up with because his extremely short guesstimates were shown to be just impossible? I believe so.<br /><br />"At the moment, I am pretty sure that mtDNA M8/C, A and G/D were in North Asia well before yDNA N arrived".<br /><br />North Asia is a big place, I repeat. They were in NE Asia, not sure if associated with N or with C3 or both (and of course with the fraction of Q that reached out to the East). In any case mtDNA G is generally considered a more southerly ("central") lineage, with lesser presence in the North, just for the record. <br /><br />"IMO, the arctic phenotype is an adaptation to the cold climate and it developed among populations that have endured the cold climate the longest".<br /><br />IMO not. IMO the East Asian phenotype is a random founder effect with origins in the quite tropical SE Asia. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-75014293167922694562013-12-15T16:50:31.433+01:002013-12-15T16:50:31.433+01:00"You always say that there is no Oriental mtD..."You always say that there is no Oriental mtDNA in Altai before the Iron Age, but I am not really convinced that you can use the fact that Eastern mtDNA is not found in western style Iron and Bronze kurgans as conclusive evidence of the Altaian mtDNA pool before the Ice Age"...<br /><br />I guess that you mean "in the Ice Age" or "before the end of the Ice Age", right? Before the Ice Age there were most likely no Homo sapiens whatsoever in that region. <br /><br />I can only agree that there is always room for doubt ("absence of evidence is not evidence of absence") but in any case the new Mal'ta data rather reinforces than notion of an extended West Eurasian genetic area in the Ice Age, even to as far East as Lake Baikal, without notice of anything that might look Oriental. <br /><br />"I think it is obvious that Q1a arrived to Siberia from north of India and not from Turkey or Europe"...<br /><br />Iran or nearby areas of South Asia. Somewhere between Delhi and Tehran, so to say.<br /><br />... "it is possible that Q1a itself arose in Siberia or Central Asia"...<br /><br />Very possibly, yes. In Altai maybe. Siberia is a big place however and for this period we should differentiate East and West and, if anything, it'd be in the Western part. And this Western part, before the N1 expansion, does not seem to have any Oriental genetics (always barring new possible surprising findings, of course). <br /><br />"I must admit that I have never understood this “West Asianness” of yDNA Q, and even less now that P and M are linked".<br /><br />It does not matter if P and M are linked (they used to be already anyhow via MNOPS), that only points to some sort of shared origin around the Bay of Bengal. P* is most common near Bengal, so it makes good sense.<br /><br />It's a matter of where the basal diversity <b>of Q</b> lays: the East Asian part of Q (and even the NW Eurasian one) are just the tip of the Iceberg; most basal lineages seem to be in West and South Asia. Also ethno-culturally, Central Asia, including all Siberia West of Baikal, were affiliated with the West in both culture and genetics during the Ice Age. <br /><br />Anyhow the distribution of Q sublineages is as follows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q-M242#Subclade_Distribution):<br /><br />→ Q* South Asia and Afghanistan<br />→ Q1* (P36.2) Iran <br /><br />So far South Asia and Iran/Afghanistan, right?<br /><br />→ Q1b (L275) and its main derived lineage Q1b1 (M378) seem restricted to West Eurasia and South Asia, so again nothing that points to the East. <br /><br />The most complicated part is probably Q1a (MEH2), which still has several basal lineages restricted to West Asia:<br />→ Q1a*: NE Asia (Koryaks and Paleo-Eskimo)<br />→ Q1a1 (F1096, "new clade") is found in East Asia (Q1a1a1) but also West Asia (Q1a1b)<br />→ Q1a2 (M346) is found in all West Eurasia and South Asia, as well as in Tibet and, one very particular subclade (Q1a2a1a1-M3) among Native Americans<br /><br />So only Q1a looks like being involved in the Northern and Eastern journey but still keeping fractions at the Western or Southern Asian origin. Q1b, Q1* and Q* all are restricted to West Eurasia and South Asia. <br /><br />I know it's counter-intuitive because frequencies peak in the North and in America but basal diversity is definitely concentrated between South and West Asia. The frequency peaks correspond only to some very particular subclades, all them within Q1a, namely the Koryak Q1a* (probably a well defined sublineage but not yet well studied), the East Asian Q1a1a or Q1a1a1 and the Native American specific Q1a2a1a1-M3. All the rest is Western, thinly spread but restricted to the West (with a lesser Tibetan exception within Q1a2). <br /><br />I think it should be easy to understand for you if you ponder this carefully. Please do it because it may well be at the origin of what I perceive as your confusion on this matter. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-42052526432988106542013-12-15T15:19:54.522+01:002013-12-15T15:19:54.522+01:00I agree with you on what you say about admixture p...I agree with you on what you say about admixture processes. It seems that people always mix and people always end up looking like their neighbours.<br /><br />You always say that there is no Oriental mtDNA in Altai before the Iron Age, but I am not really convinced that you can use the fact that Eastern mtDNA is not found in western style Iron and Bronze kurgans as conclusive evidence of the Altaian mtDNA pool before the Ice Age, and note that Eastern mtDNA (C, A, D, F) has been found in the oldest sites around Lake Baikal, just there where we have now ancient R and Q.<br /><br />I think it is obvious that Q1a arrived to Siberia from north of India and not from Turkey or Europe, and it is possible that Q1a itself arose in Siberia or Central Asia well before the last glacial maximum. I must admit that I have never understood this “West Asianness” of yDNA Q, and even less now that P and M are linked. In my opinion, West Asianness is more related to yDNAs IJG and mtDNAs HV, H, JT and N1a.<br /><br />Klyosov gives the following age estimations: <br />Q 33 kya, Q1a 27 kya, Q1a1b-M25 12.7 kya, Q1a2-M346 21.7 kya<br />C3 29 kya, C3b (America) 27 kya, C3 (Asia) 27 kya, C3c (Asia) 23 kya<br />N1c1d-L708 (European N1c) 8.4 kya<br />N-M231 16 kya, N1*-LLY22g (found in China, mainly Yunnan, Sichuan, Xinjiang) 22 kya, N1b 19 kya, N1c 11.7 kya (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0066102)<br />N1 15.8 kya (Chinese Super-Grandfathers)<br />N1b Khanty 4 kya, Izhemski Komi 6.7 kya (northern group), Priluzski Komi 13 kya (southern group), other Slavs 18 kya, Hezhens 3 kya, other Siberian and Mongolian groups 5.2 kya (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2986641/)<br /><br />At the moment, I am pretty sure that mtDNA M8/C, A and G/D were in North Asia well before yDNA N arrived. With all likelihood, paleo-Native Americans were in Beringia before 24 kya and with all likelihood, N1b spread to Central North Siberia after LGM. After reading “A Mitochondrial Revelation of Early Human Migrations to the Tibetan Plateau Before and After the Last Glacial Maximum”, 2010, it seems that mtDNA G/D is rather linked with yDNA C3 than yDNA D as mtDNA D does not figure among the oldest haplogroups in Tibet. Instead, A10 is among the oldest mtDNA lines in Tibet together with C4d (ages c. 20 kya), while M8a and A5 are found in Korea and Japan. At most, one could argue that M8 and A arrived with yDNA D, but on the basis of their distribution I still think that a connection with yDNA Q is more plausible. YDNA N cannot have brought these haplogroups to Altai after LGM, as they were already in America at that time. Your theory can be true only if N is much older than estimated, against all scientific papers which say that it is younger compared to other yDNA lines. Your theory also creates plenty of other problems: why yDNA N did not migrate to America if it met Paleo-Native Americans, why there is no original Native American mtDNAs anywhere in North Asia, why Native Americans do not show at any level a 50% admixture with Siberians, why Mal’ta and Afontova Gora individuals do not show any East Asian or Siberian admixture if N1b was around.<br /><br />IMO, the arctic phenotype is an adaptation to the cold climate and it developed among populations that have endured the cold climate the longest.<br />Kristiinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994105875605082112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-79538620600520368362013-12-15T10:00:52.643+01:002013-12-15T10:00:52.643+01:00I've been chewing on this distribution of Q1a2...I've been chewing on this distribution of Q1a2b (following your word all the time in this) and it becomes clear that Q1a2b is a West Eurasian lineage (which a Northern tendency) that was never in China, Mongolia, East Siberia nor any other place of East Asia where it could have picked oriental mtDNA like C before it came to at least West Siberia or Altai by some other mean. <br /><br />It's almost indinstinct from R1a in its distribution (just a bit more northerly because of Selkups and lack of Southern or SW Asian presence, it seems, but not more easterly at all). <br /><br />So it was the butler...<br /><br />There's no other patrilocal vector to (pre-Turkic) East Asian mtDNA in Europe or the Wider West Asia than N1. <br /><br />Someone mentioned (not sure if here or in Davidski's blog) that Mal'ta does not even have autosomal affinity to East Asians barring minor to Inuits, which is consistent with minor Western roots for all NAs. We do not see Oriental mtDNA in Altai before the Iron Age either, so unless you can mysteriously attribute this mtDNA to proto-Selkups before N1 contact, I'm closing the case. <br /><br />Selkups, quite curiously are maybe the only Uralic speakers without dominant yDNA N1 (other than extremely anomalous Magyars), being instead dominated by Q (possibly all or most that Q1a2b you mentioned). I'm not sure what's their exact unwritten history but I'd bet that their mtDNA ancestry and quasi-oriental phenotype comes from systematic admixture with N1 Uralics south of them, probably the (proto-)Ugrics (as their presence in NE-most Europe is recent). <br /><br />Earlier, when we discussed the issue of maternally-caused dilution of autosomal genetics and phenotype, including the extreme dilution to near-nothingness that we observe in Western Uralics and Native Americans, I came to think that simple intermarriage with nearby groups can be enough in the long term to cause that. Let's imagine a simplified case of three populations A, B and C, each of whom lives just north of the previous one and is therefore many times smaller (climate obliges). A could have Ne=100,000, B: Ne=10,000 and C Ne=1000. Each time an equal intermarriage happens it causes almost no change in the southern population but it makes a much more important effect in the northern one, especially as this pattern is repeated through time for centuries and even millennia. These three populations can be anything like, for example, three Uralic populations such as Estonians, Finns and Sámi, but we can also see them as three ethnically different populations such as proto-IEs (or other steppe peoples), West Siberia Uralics and Selkups. In the end C (Selkups, for example) would end up with largely the B (Ugric) original mtDNA/DNAn/phenotype, while B would adopt at least partly the A (steppe) mtDNA/DNAn/phenotype. As populations are internally layered and the history is not that linear, there are probably some nuances to this overall pattern but I think it can explain the DNA changes to the partial exclusion of Y-DNA (which persists much better because of patrilocality) even in relative geographical stasis, without need of founder effects or other strange phenomena (still possible but not really necessary). <br /><br />So I would dare say that proto-Selkups, today the archetype of "orientalness" in Europe, were once as "western" in everything as any other European (as their Western Y-DNA tells us: >95% Western, including Q1a2b) but became heavily orientalized because of persistent N1-Uralic contact influence, which even assimilated them in language. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-54447060243989880962013-12-14T01:01:03.476+01:002013-12-14T01:01:03.476+01:00I think that the interesting part of all you say i...I think that the interesting part of all you say is: <br /><br /><i>Q1a2b L-940: Northern Altaians, Selkups, Chechens, Scandinavians, Northern Europeans, Central Asia[n]s</i><br /><br />Because it seems to establish some sort of link between Europe and Central Asia, skipping West Asia for this lineage. All the rest is just "noise" for me. <br /><br />"I would buy an Eurasian rather than West Asian origin for Q1a2".<br /><br />West Asia is part of Asia and therefore of Eurasia, which is the name of Asia+Europe. We could say just "Asia" in fact (Europe is just a subcontinent of the Asian landmass) but it gets confusing, so we use Eurasia instead (→ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasia). <br /><br />Also, whatever your unusual usage of the term, West Asia has all the time been in intimate contact with both Europe and Central Asia, as well as South Asia and parts of Africa. Considering that Q as a whole and at least a sizable number of sublineages have ancient origin in West Asia most likely (South Asia may be an alternative origin), we have to get very much fine tuned to the particular lineage we are dealing with in order to discuss its origins.<br /><br />So rather than discussing Q1a2, I'd discuss Q1a2b specifically. This one does look rather northernly indeed, assuming that your population data is complete and does not have information blanks. I have no idea of when it arrived to Europe, but considering the necessary age of its "brother" Q1a2a, which must have migrated to the Far East c. 30,000 years ago, it's possible that Q1a2b is similarly old in Europe. If so it should not be signature of any Epipaleolithic movement, at least not the bulk of it, but something more ancient. <br /><br />But who knows? I will remain open to whatever future aDNA data on the matter (just spare me the age guesstimates, please: they are just a distraction). Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-89767043037436834862013-12-13T19:52:19.520+01:002013-12-13T19:52:19.520+01:00Q1a2 (also Q1a3) has three main branches: Q1a2a, Q...Q1a2 (also Q1a3) has three main branches: Q1a2a, Q1a2b, Q1a2c<br />Q1a2a1a L-54: M3 Native Americans, age estimation 22-24 kya (http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0071390); L-804 Scandinavians<br />Q1a2a1b Z780, L191: Native Americans<br />Q1a2a1c L330: Mongols, Kets, Khantys, Tuvinians, age estimation in Mongolia is 6.5 kya (http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0071390)<br />Q1a2b L-940: Northern Altaians, Selkups, Chechens, Scandinavians, Northern Europeans, Central Asias<br />Q1a2c M323: Yemenite Jews<br />Here are some Q1a2 frequencies:<br />Kets 84%<br />Northern Selkups 66.4%<br />Tuvinians 38%<br />Northern Altaians 20%<br />Khakassians 6%<br />Mongolians 4.5%<br />Tajiks 3.5%<br />Evens 3.2%<br />Uzbeks 3%<br />Zoroasterians 2.9%<br />Indians 2.4%<br />Burusho 2.1%<br />Pashtuns 1-2%<br />Lur 2%<br />Pakistanis 1.7%<br />Azeris 1.6%<br />Tibetans 1.23% (whole Q)<br />Iranians 0.9%<br />Saudi Arabia 0.64%<br />The Recent Klyosov paper gives the following ages for the Q1a2 variation (http://aklyosov.home.comcast.net/~aklyosov/5_12_2012.pdf):<br />Iran 8.8 kya<br />Arabia, Anatolia 6.85 kya<br />India 3.5 kya<br />Europe (Q1a2a1 L-53) 16.5 kya<br />Altai 8.7 kya<br />America Q1a2a L-213 16 kya <br />America Q1a2a1a1 M3 13 kya<br />America Q1a2a1a1f L-766 11 kya<br />I would buy an Eurasian rather than West Asian origin for Q1a2.<br />Kristiinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994105875605082112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-58431061399529105292013-12-13T15:19:58.951+01:002013-12-13T15:19:58.951+01:00"Scandinavian Q lines which form their own cl..."Scandinavian Q lines which form their own clusters and are not found in Native Americans"...<br /><br />Alright. I was not privy to the details.<br /><br />My main question would be: are they of Siberian/East Asian relationship, of West Asian relationship or totally independent. I say because Q does not need to be North Asian in origin either and may perfectly have a West Asian origin, where most of the basal diversity of the haplogroup is.<br /><br />While, by numbers, Q is more important in Siberia and America, it is by origin a West Eurasian haplogroup, probably from Iran or somewhere nearby, so we can't conclude the Siberian origin just for being Q. <br /><br />In fact, from what you say, the Scandinavian Q is part of Q1a2-L56, of which Wikipedia says:<br /><br /><i>Found at low frequency in Europe, South Asia and West Asia. It has been found in Pakistan,[24] Saudi Arabia,[25] the United Arab Emirates,[28] India,[24] Tibet,[14] and Bali.[17] Found with high frequency 25-50% in Turkmens and Turkmenistan</i>...<br /><br />Also, within it there are listed the main NA branch Q1a2a1a1-M3 and a Yemeni-Jewish branch Q1a2c-M323. <br /><br />So it seems to be of direct West Asian origin, even if maybe ancient (?) an does not look related to Siberia.<br /><br />Some doubts may be raised re. Q1a2a1a2-L804, because it's "brother" of M3 but it can still perfectly be of ancient West or Central Asian origin.<br /><br />Other Western European Q lineages may still be of American origin (they are very rare in any case). Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-29511482563361080242013-12-13T14:24:24.715+01:002013-12-13T14:24:24.715+01:00I am Sorry Maju, I do not want to be mean. However...I am Sorry Maju, I do not want to be mean. However, I do not understand how Scandinavian Q lines which form their own clusters and are not found in Native Americans could be imported from America post-Columbian times. According to Wikipedia: The frequency of haplogroup Q-M242 in Norway and Sweden is about 3%. It is believed that almost all of these are either Q-L527 or Q-L804. According to Eupedia, Götaland and Gotland in southern Sweden now have the highest frequency of haplogroup Q in Europe (5%) and almost all of it belong to the Q1a2b1 (L527).Kristiinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994105875605082112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-53573533719434528652013-12-13T11:24:23.152+01:002013-12-13T11:24:23.152+01:00"So now you think that Native Americans saile..."So now you think that Native Americans sailed across the Atlantic and landed in Scandinavia."<br /><br />NO! I think that European colonialism in America since the Viking era (and certainly since Columbus) brought the occasional Native American lineage to Europe.<br /><br />"I suppose that you also support the American origin of European mtDNA X2."<br /><br />NO! It's a clear marker of Neolithic spread from West Asia, as are W, N1, J and T mtDNA lineages (and maybe others). I can't say if there is some rare X2 in Europe from America but it's certainly not the rule.<br /><br />Either you don't pay attention to what I say or you're being intentionally manipulating my opinion, something I do not like the least. Please do not get into that kind of irrational polemic. Thanks in advance. <br /><br />"On the basis od Genetiker’s analysis (http://genetiker.wordpress.com/) of Afontova Gora, there is no Sinid or Tungid in Siberia 17 kya"...<br /><br />Fine with that. Those are not the (main) ancestors of (yDNA) N1 peoples (Uralics and such). Maybe at that point these were a few valleys to the East or maybe they were just pondering their chances of migration northwards at the Yellow River. I can't say. <br /><br />It's early for the post-LGM chronology. For comparison in Europe, Magdalenian was already being formed in SW Europe but the expansion to Central Europe would still take some 2000 years more or so. <br /><br />"It cannot be excluded that haplogroup F appeared in Kets only recently"...<br /><br />I'm skeptic. Why only them? <br /><br />"It is more likely, however, that haplogroup F was purchased from the Sayan–Altai region, the territory of presumptive origin of one of the Kets’ ancestors".<br /><br />I'd say that all the Yeniseian branch may well have those origins in fact. "Purchased" is therefore not the term.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-28219900493838115922013-12-13T09:01:39.808+01:002013-12-13T09:01:39.808+01:00You yourself have vehemently defended the idea tha...You yourself have vehemently defended the idea that P was first in Altai c. 30 kya and proceeded to America. Now it seems that Afontova Gora ydna (17 kya) is Q1a1, which is found today in East Asia, including in Vietnam with a frequency of 7% (Q-M120), and in Iran and the surroundings with a frequency of 2% -6% (Q-M25). On the basis od Genetiker’s analysis (http://genetiker.wordpress.com/) of Afontova Gora, there is no Sinid or Tungid in Siberia 17 kya:<br />Globe 4<br />•70.95% Caucasoid (“European”)<br />•28.11% Indianid (“Amerindian”)<br />•0.91% Negroid (“African”)<br />•0.03% Mongoloid (“Asian”)<br /><br />Globe13<br />•62.62% Nordic (“North_European”)<br />•11.87% Indianid (“Amerindian”)<br />•10.70% Alpine (“West_Asian”)<br />•7.45% Veddoid (“South_Asian”)<br />•6.54% Eskimid (“Arctic”)<br />•0.61% Paleo-Negrid (“West_African”)<br />•0.13% Melanesid (“Australasian”)<br />•0.07% Nilotid (“East_African”)<br />•0.00% Capoid (“Palaeo_African”)<br />•0.00% Mediterranean (“Mediterranean”)<br />•0.00% Orientalid (“Southwest_Asian”)<br />•0.00% Sinid (“East_Asian”)<br />•0.00% Tungid (“Siberian”)<br /><br />That Yakut paper says clearly that ”The most frequent Y chromosome haplogroup in northern Eurasia – N1c –most probably arose in present day China and spread to Siberia after the founder event associated with the human entry into the Americas. Two other Y-chromosome haplogroups dominant in Siberia – C3 and Q1 – are more ancient in northern Asia.”<br /><br />As for mtDNA F, the Ket study says ” urthermore, in the population of Upper Kets (the settlement of Sulomai) haplogroup F was detected. It was shown that all nine Kets carrying haplogroup F had one mtDNA haplotype, i.e., the probability of the founder effect was close to 100%. It cannot be excluded that haplogroup F appeared in Kets only recently as a result of recent marriages with their neighbors, western Evenks, where this haplogroup is found with low frequency. It is more likely, however, that haplogroup F was purchased from the Sayan–Altai region, the territory of presumptive origin of one of the Kets’ ancestors.” NB, this is just the area from which yDNA N spread to the north and west.<br /><br />So now you think that Native Americans sailed across the Atlantic and landed in Scandinavia. I suppose that you also support the American origin of European mtDNA X2.<br />Kristiinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994105875605082112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-75623853844038869272013-12-12T20:40:10.688+01:002013-12-12T20:40:10.688+01:00"I am quite sure that the oldest Oleni Ostrov..."I am quite sure that the oldest Oleni Ostrov Culture was Yeniseian, with what I only mean that yDNA was Q". <br /><br />I can't accept that but as an unfounded speculation. I'd dare say that Yeniseian peoples probably arrived to West Siberia after Uralics. The still fresh linguistic connection of Yeniseian with Na-Dene, whose migration to America is believed to be most recent and the fact that Yeniseians (Kets) have a lot of mtDNA F, rather weight against such idea. Another reason against is the extremely low occurrence of Y-DNA Q in Europe, mostly related to recent contacts with America across the Atlantic. <br /><br />I don't think that the frequencies of U4a1 on their own can serve as better evidence. Highly speculative at best. <br /><br />"As for mtDNA A, I think that it moved with the Yeniseians in the west"...<br /><br />Haplogroup A is not meaningful in West Eurasia, including West Siberia, so I'm not paying any attention to it in relation to this discussion. In any case, if you imagine it to be related to Yeniseians, then it'd be another negative evidence to relate the Karelian and North Russian aDNA with them, right?<br /><br />"I think that N came from southwest China, and it seems that it did not bring any mtDNA to Europe from southwest China". <br /><br />N may have ultimate origins in Southern China but the N that spread to Siberia and Europe almost certainly came from North China (and/or nearby areas), where it was still very common in the Neolithic (while in the South it was not anymore). <br /><br />"Perhaps mtDNA F2a, frequent in southwest China, was brought to the north by yDNA N"...<br /><br />Perhaps but do not trust frequencies too much: founder effects only need one founder, more so in the extreme conditions of the Far North. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-13437256821230884552013-12-12T14:37:48.747+01:002013-12-12T14:37:48.747+01:00I correct myself again:
The age of M8a variation i...I correct myself again:<br />The age of M8a variation is 15700-36700 (according to Soares), and the age of C variation is 38400 ± 9900 years (Derenko et al. 2003) and 18100-34500 (according to Soares 2009).Kristiinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994105875605082112noreply@blogger.com