tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post1905864090004087116..comments2024-03-09T15:46:44.638+01:00Comments on For what they were... we are: Kurgan ancient DNA suggests major impact in North-Central EuropeMajuhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comBlogger138125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-55871003394307229022015-05-02T17:09:13.582+02:002015-05-02T17:09:13.582+02:00So, his proto-Eurasian ancestors, who likely lived...<i>So, his proto-Eurasian ancestors, who likely lived just before Y-DNA K-M526 and <b>perhaps even mtDNA R</b> existed, mixed with Neanderthals ~55 kya.</i><br /><br />There is now also a <a href="http://www.sciencemag.org/content/early/2015/04/22/science.aaa2773.full" rel="nofollow">mtDNA R</a> from a ~40 kya Protoaurignacian specimen from northern Italy. It is another basal R lineage that sits close to the R root, much like Ust'-Ishim's R* lineage. This new mtDNA sample has a slightly longer branch, however, and was estimated to be a couple of thousands of years younger than Ust'-Ishim's mtDNA lineage, which is consistent with the archaeological context.<br /><br />We now have early R lineages from the period 40-45 kya spanning a geographic range from Europe (Fumane 2), to Siberia (Ust'-Ishim) and East Asia (Tianyuan, who belonged to a basal lineage within the B sublineage). Clearly indicating a relatively recent common ancestry for these groups before 45,000 years ago, prior to the wide dispersal of anatomically modern humans in Eurasia that is seen in the fossil record. Lankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09164328821211694856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-31000738943013136692015-04-29T05:17:34.391+02:002015-04-29T05:17:34.391+02:00Nice response. I see same patterns. Nice response. I see same patterns. Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11566494589399073241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-46593272732920513692015-03-11T02:36:17.411+01:002015-03-11T02:36:17.411+01:00It's difficult to reach to conclusion based on...It's difficult to reach to conclusion based on "zombie" components taken from modern people who make ancestors seem our descendants rather than the other way around, and worse: mediated by artificious components and not free running ones. <br /><br />However I do see your point: actually the BB and CW samples are almost identical in that graph to Braña/Lochsbour but with "something else" as admixture: mostly West Med in BB (attributable to EEF/ENE/MNE) and West Asian in CW (attributable to the Yamna roots: Caucasus-Zagros component). So CW look Yamna but BB look HG with some ENF (with one exception).<br /><br />Anyhow, I'm thinking that the global K=16 that is "optimal" in the global sample is just equivalent to K=3 in the European sample (blue-orange-dirty green), which is clearly much suboptimal. Even K=20 is just equivalent in Europe to K=4, what can only be a draft. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-47101130652999487302015-03-11T01:07:05.475+01:002015-03-11T01:07:05.475+01:00Maju
As I stated elswhere, I too am suspect of the...Maju<br />As I stated elswhere, I too am suspect of the figures and narrative generally advanced for northern and western Eruope. <br /><br />i also agree that using ANE is taking a step back, rather than forward. In fact, I think David's K15 analysis which breaks up the ancient genomes into 'Atlantic', "EE", "North Sea", "West Asian", etc if more informative. <br /><br />If you look at the graph I made of Davids K15:<br /><br />https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1vtTHobiXwVY0dqSGxzZ3g4d0E/view?usp=sharing<br /><br />Then it is clear, IMO, that Labschour, La Brana and esp Motala already posessed some "EE" and "baltic" components which otherwise characterise Samar, Karelia, and later Yamnaya. The only truly novel components are the "West Asian' and 'south Asian" ones. <br /><br />What this means in the big scheme of things requires clarification. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12259212254098264600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-84996529860292880292015-03-09T13:12:15.482+01:002015-03-09T13:12:15.482+01:00I agree ! I agree ! Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12259212254098264600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-37091994977415642092015-03-09T12:40:36.411+01:002015-03-09T12:40:36.411+01:00New information on Q-L54 lineage is available also...New information on Q-L54 lineage is available also in this Russian paper http://rjgg.molgen.org/index.php/RJGGRE/article/view/150/174 . Figure 1 (Рисунок 1.) and Table 2 (Таблица 2.) present the branching and age estimates of Anzick lineage and its related lineages, including Q-L330 which is typical of Kets.Kristiinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994105875605082112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-28405786262150847762015-03-09T10:08:11.012+01:002015-03-09T10:08:11.012+01:00Ah, ok. It's better to explain your point when...Ah, ok. It's better to explain your point when you post a link, rather than a naked link. <br /><br />I hope so but now I'm even more interested in ancient British and Irish samples. That SHG tendency and the practical impossibility of 100% replacement, as claimed by "ANE alchemists", make the matter very intriguing. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-42060826263848213302015-03-09T09:53:58.670+01:002015-03-09T09:53:58.670+01:00Ryan, as you are interested in interaction between...Ryan, as you are interested in interaction between America and Eurasia, you are surely interested in this very recent paper on Greenland Inuit yDNA: Peopling of the North Circumpolar Region – Insights from Y Chromosome STR and SNP Typing of Greenlanders http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0116573<br /><br />They say that ”Two Y-chromosomal lineages, Q-M3 (xM19, M194, L663, SA01 and L766) and Q-NWT01 (xM265) were found to be prominent in Greenlanders. The Q-M3 lineage has previously been found among Native American populations throughout North and South America, whereas Q-NWT01 (xM265) was previously reported at high frequency in an Inuit population of the Canadian Northwest Territories.<br /><br />The estimated TMRCA of the Q-M3 (xM19, M194, L663, SA01 and L766) lineage in Greenlanders is lower than that estimated for the same lineage among the Inuit populations of the Canadian Northwest Territories. The same was observed for the haplotype diversity and the MPD. These observations are consistent with the theory that the derived M3 variant appeared in Beringia or Alaska and that individuals carrying the derived stated at M3 migrated towards the East across North American and eventually reached Greenland. It is likely that individuals carrying the derived state at M3 are descendants of the Thule culture, which has its origin in North Alaska.<br />However, the older TMRCA of the Q-NWT01 (xM265) lineage in Greenland than in the Canadian Northwest Territories could indicate that the Q-NWT01 (xM265) lineage spread from an eastern region of North America towards the north and west. It is possible that the Q-NWT01 (xM265) lineage originated in individuals who later developed into the Dorset culture. The detection of Y-HGs of possible Dorset origin in the current Inuit populations would indicate that there was interbreeding between the individuals of the Dorset and Thule cultures. In light of this hypothesis, a back migration of the Q-NWT01 (xM265) lineage and/or its derived lineages into Asia needs to be considered as the Q-M120 lineage (see Figure A in S1 File) is wide spread at low frequencies in Asian populations.<br /><br />Overall, our results are in agreement with previous studies, indicating that the populations of the North Circumpolar Region, including Greenland, share a common origin with Native American populations. However, the male Inuit population in Greenland appears to be a mixture of individuals belonging to two Y-chromosomal lineages within Y-HG Q-M242. Males carrying the derived state at the M3 locus appear to stem from an expansion of humans from the northwest region of North America. Most likely, these individuals are descendants of the Thule culture that reached Greenland approximately 800 y. a. Individuals carrying the derived state at the NWT01 locus may have been part of the same expansion [22]. However, our results indicate that the Inuit individuals of the Q-NWT01 (xM265) lineage may be descendants of the Dorset Paleo-Eskimo culture. Therefore, our results points to the possibility that there has been gene flow between the Dorset and Thule Inuit and that the current male Inuit population, at least in Greenland, bears traces of both Thule and Dorset descent.”<br />Kristiinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02994105875605082112noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-72556594810870506042015-03-09T09:31:02.455+01:002015-03-09T09:31:02.455+01:00The "Future research" bit on Iberia ?The "Future research" bit on Iberia ?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12259212254098264600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-44930321538765319232015-03-09T07:50:38.684+01:002015-03-09T07:50:38.684+01:00Of what interest is that link? I do read SD often ...Of what interest is that link? I do read SD often but this is the ranscript of the press release (as SD articles usually are) of the paper under discussion here, so what 's the point?Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-20771608725166818302015-03-08T03:18:19.710+01:002015-03-08T03:18:19.710+01:00http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/03/15030...http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/03/150304075334.htm<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12259212254098264600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-28662255676774666252015-03-06T14:23:53.366+01:002015-03-06T14:23:53.366+01:00There was a recent study on Native American geneti...There was a recent study on Native American genetic diversity in Canada and Mexico that showed very clearly that the former are much more diverse than the latter. Can't find the paper now, sorry. The USA was not studied, so there was a huge blank left in the middle of North America but, in any case, it seems obvious that either, in Mesoamerica or in a previous stage further North, there was some sort of bottleneck effect affecting at least Mexico and everything south of it. <br /><br />That does not deny the purported unity of Amerinds (as first Native Americans out of Beringia), it just speaks of a particular "mega-branch" from Mexico towards the south with a reduced genetic diversity. So I would not make an issue of lineages or other markers that were just left behind in the march to the South. <br /><br />Rather than thinking in "Algonquian" markers, I'd think of left-behind diversity of Northern North America but always within a wider Amerind concept. <br /><br />"... it seems like the Haida and Dene share a common origin, but went through a period of prolonged isolation".<br /><br />Alright. Interesting.<br /><br />[Haida's] "A2 is very diverse".<br /><br />That's also very interesting and may explain the origins of the A2 lineage, as it seems in NW North America, not far from Beringia. <br /><br />Re. the Eskimos: they seem part of the Beringian left-behind population. They should not be considered "Asian" in any meaningful way but very specifically Beringian and closely related, at least in genetics, to the Amerind founder effect. Less clear to me is the origin of the Dene-Yeniseian: although they are somehow related to the wider Native American roots, they might well be more "Siberian" in origin, something partly hidden by admixture with other NAs (or with other Eurasians in the case of Kets). Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-45735609515069002382015-03-06T00:59:03.074+01:002015-03-06T00:59:03.074+01:00"I would not consider those lineages "Al..."I would not consider those lineages "Algonquian" for the very reason that they are very old in time. If the Algonquian language family would be that old it would be impossible to recognize. In fact, the most likely language family (albeit hotly debated) for that chronology can only be Amerind."<br /><br />I agree, and even today it's not just confined to Algonquian peoples - you can find the same haplogroups in Sioux, Iroquois, Salish... So "Algonquian" is not the correct word. Para-Algonquian? It's the word Reich used though, which isn't helpful.<br /><br />I disagree with just lumping it under Amerind though, as that would include the groups that do not contain this North American specific ancestry.<br /><br />Re: Haida - I'm not suggesting they are part of Na-Dene, but simply that they might have a more distant relationship with them. Based on this paper, it seems like the Haida and Dene share a common origin, but went through a period of prolonged isolation. http://labs.icb.ufmg.br/lbem/pdf/schurr12AJPA-southeastAlaskapops.pdf<br /><br />I'd note too that the oldest DNA from the Alaskan Coast is from On Your Knees Cave around 10 Ky with D4h3a - http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.ca/2014/05/12000-years-old-mexican-girl-confirms.html<br /><br />Haida completely lack D4h3a, but their A2 is very diverse (in more diverse than the coastal Dene tested in that study). The arrival of microblades to the SE Alaska / NW BC region at 10-8 Ky would fit as been the source of a lot of the ancestry of both Dene and Haida IMHO. That deep a linguistic relationship would be hard to reconstruct though, so we'd be left with only a vague similarity.<br /><br />Agree with all your thoughts re: P1 and Toba.<br /><br />Re: the Inuit and other Eskimo groups, I'd just keep in mind that they come from a subsequent and much more recent expansion (1-2Ky). The Paleoeskimos were mostly wiped out by this expansion. :(Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07906194112935320590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-57443005273749861572015-03-05T09:01:22.999+01:002015-03-05T09:01:22.999+01:00Yes, you're right, my bad. The figure I was se...Yes, you're right, my bad. The figure I was searching for was fig. S21 but got confused when looking at both S22 maps. In any case you're right: Naukans are more Ma1-like than Kets. <br /><br />On the other hand they are from Chukotka (Asian half of Beringia) and belong to the Inuit-Yupik (or Eskimo) wider group so it's not particularly fair to consider them Asian above American. <br /><br />It's interesting to understand the Eskimo genesis, from Wikipedia "Eskimo" entry: "the earliest positively identified North American Eskimo cultures (pre-Dorset) date to 5,000 years ago. They appear to have evolved in Alaska from people related to the Arctic small tool tradition in Asia who probably had migrated to Alaska at least 3,000 to 5,000 years earlier. There are similar artifacts found in Siberia going back perhaps 18,000 years."<br /><br />The latest sentence is rather meaningless as such because Siberia is huge but seems to underline a deep Asian origin of the macro-population. However it's clear that the proto-Eskimo pop. must have been living in extreme NE Asia (a branch of the proto-Amerinds of Beringia surely) since "always", migrated to Alaska c. 10-8 Ka ago (within early Holocene context therefore) and back to Chukotka c. 5 Ka ago. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-1832272479957451142015-03-05T07:14:32.918+01:002015-03-05T07:14:32.918+01:00Oh, re: Figure 23 - that one is Han vs Ma-1, no? S...Oh, re: Figure 23 - that one is Han vs Ma-1, no? So more a measure of ANE vs East Asian than actual closeness to Ma-1.Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07906194112935320590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-44899070539637434472015-03-05T06:51:37.868+01:002015-03-05T06:51:37.868+01:00...
"This paper has X2a at 14-17 Ky compared......<br /><br />"This paper has X2a at 14-17 Ky compared to D4h3a's 14-18 Ky estimate. D4h3a was Anzick's mtDNA haplogroup. X2a may be younger than D4h3a, but not by a lot."<br /><br />I would not consider those lineages "Algonquian" for the very reason that they are very old in time. If the Algonquian language family would be that old it would be impossible to recognize. In fact, the most likely language family (albeit hotly debated) for that chronology can only be <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerind_languages" rel="nofollow">Amerind</a>. <br /><br />If X2a is restricted to Native Americans (AFAIK the Siberian sister clade is X2g or maybe X2h, while there is more X2 in West Asia and, since Neolithic, in Europe as well) then it's only logical that it has a 17 Ka BP age (roughly). All founder NA haplogroups should.<br /><br />"Interesting that you mention India as a possible source. That would maybe explain the possible "basal East Asian" admixture in Ma-1, and how the heck haplogroup P got involved."<br /><br />If it's truly "East Asian" it should rather mean some admixture with ancient East Asians, more apparent in Native Americans - but there's no reason why Ma1, so close to Baikal, should be protected from East Asian genetic backflows. <br /><br />However the route of P1 is pretty much unmistakable today: K probably migrated to SE Asia either soon after or just before the Toba catastrophe and K2 then expanded from that region: first the NO branch northwards and then K2a to Papua and P1 to India, where it left a legacy in form of P1* in the Lower Ganges and in form of upstream branches of Q and R in North India, Pakistan and Iran. A similar trail can be followed for mtDNA R, which is clearly coupled with Y-DNA K2. <br /><br />Scholastic molecular-clock-o-logists may disagree but for me it is unmistakable, even if the association of some mtDNA N subclades and that or some R with Y-DNA IJ in West Eurasia may slightly blur the issue - but nothing that can't be explained: (y) IJ was incorporated into the P1 westward trail, becoming important for some reason, while (mt) N seems to have expanded not too long before the expansion of R and from around the same SE Asia-Bengal arch. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-42128465924903354302015-03-05T06:50:59.626+01:002015-03-05T06:50:59.626+01:00In the supplemental table 1 (link to HTML format a...In the supplemental table 1 (<a href="http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0083570" rel="nofollow">link to HTML format article</a>), A2a is only listed among Taymirs. Another A2 variant, A2b1 is found among the Koryaks. <br /><br />On the other hand, A4 and A8 are found in various populations, so it is not just A2 what we see of A in Siberia. In fact <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_A_%28mtDNA%29" rel="nofollow">mtDNA A</a> is common in NE Asia (Mongol, Japanese, several Siberian groups not studied in that paper, Manchurian Chinese, as well as among Tibetan populations (Yunnan, Tibet). While I do not know of any detailed study on the underlying structure of this haplogroup, it's easy to imagine that it spread from either the Tibetan region or NE Asia and had some sort of burst in the Paleolithic because it shows star-like structure at the pre-A2 level particularly and then also at A2 but this is probable related to Native-American expansion already (see <a href="http://www.phylotree.org/tree/subtree_N.htm" rel="nofollow">PhyloTree</a>). The short "molecular" difference between this pre-A2 and A2 stars suggests a post-LGM chronology, what fits well its relative Northerner specialization and may still be related, albeit indirectly (via East Siberia) to the Native American formation process. <br /><br />Incidentally I must note that A4 seems to have been dropped from the latest PhyloTree nomenclature. It'd be interesting to see how the newest phylogeny and older data converge (too much work though). <br /><br />"The Taimyr peninsula is directly adjacent to the Yenisei river. So pretty plausible."<br /><br />Believe what you want but "plausible" is not fact and the rarity of A2a plays against the notion. <br /><br />Anyhow, please chew on what I just mentioned on the pre-A2 (A1"22) star-like structure and the subsequent A2 one. They are separated just by a mere HVS-1 mutation so we are probably looking here at the very same right-after-the-LGM expansion, just that at different sides the American-Asian isthmus. <br /><br />"If we accept a genetic and/or linguistic relationship with the Haida"...<br /><br />The same linguists who are applauding the Dene-Yeniseian theory are rejecting that Haida is part of Na-Dene. <br /><br />" After that the sea separates Haida Gwai from the mainland, with even greater isolation from the continent than what exists at the Bering Strait".<br /><br />→ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haida_people#History<br /><br />Apparently the Haida have occupied Haida Gwaii since the very first NA colonization some 17 Ka ago. Also they were not really isolated and are credited for the introduction of the totem pole and other NW coast traditions. They were skilled seamen (within the limitations of their pre-colonial technological stage). <br /><br />...Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-44075663158311338572015-03-05T04:11:01.675+01:002015-03-05T04:11:01.675+01:00"I think it's safe to assume that it is N..."I think it's safe to assume that it is NOT A2a, why would it be?"<br /><br />A2a is present elsewhere in NE Asia. Really only A2a and A2b are. Also, I half-remembered seeing another paper reporting A2a there, but couldn't find it. :3 Now I have!<br /><br />http://www.ddl.ish-lyon.cnrs.fr/fulltext/Pakendorf/Duggan_2013_Tungusic_PLoSONE.pdf<br /><br />A2a is found among Taimyr Evenks but no other Tungusic groups. The Taimyr peninsula is directly adjacent to the Yenisei river. So pretty plausible.<br /><br />"Only for the Amerind bloc (rather 17 Ka old according to the latest data, older dates like a Brazilian 22 Ka one are still not regarded "credible" but the ones from SW USA and the Andean area are indeed quite credible and strongly support a barely post-LGM expansion in America from Beringia."<br /><br />I agree. Only setting 14Ka as a lower bound.<br /><br />"However the Na-Dene migration should be much much much more recent. Late Holocene even!"<br /><br />If we accept a genetic and/or linguistic relationship with the Haida though, it's at least 8Ka old. After that the sea separates Haida Gwai from the mainland, with even greater isolation from the continent than what exists at the Bering Strait.<br /><br />"If you trust molecular-clock-o-logy only. I just do not, unless very well done, what is the exception and not the rule. What "distinctive" marker are you thinking of anyhow?"<br /><br />I don't trust their calibration, but I think they can at least give a good idea of the relative age of different groups. I'm referring to C4c and X2a and their diversity. This paper has X2a at 14-17 Ky compared to D4h3a's 14-18 Ky estimate. D4h3a was Anzick's mtDNA haplogroup. X2a may be younger than D4h3a, but not by a lot.<br /><br />http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982208016187<br /><br />I'll take a look at those sources. All I was trying to get at though is that there was later cultural (and perhaps genetic) flow into Beringia that may created some structure in the initial peopling of the America.<br /><br />Interesting that you mention India as a possible source. That would maybe explain the possible "basal East Asian" admixture in Ma-1, and how the heck haplogroup P got involved.<br /><br />Spanish is fine for me. I don't speak it, but I'm pretty fluent in French, and so long as I have an online dictionary for the occasional word. Put me in front of someone actually speaking Spanish and I'd be useless though.Ryanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07906194112935320590noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-28934580344377234962015-03-05T02:18:06.263+01:002015-03-05T02:18:06.263+01:00Well, I said already in the main entry that: "...Well, I said already in the main entry that: "An interesting detail is that there is no or nearly no mtDNA H within the Kurgan (IE) samples, strongly suggesting that their migration was largely male-biased, at least initially". <br /><br />So basically the mtDNA at least is not Kurgan. What else do you want me to say?<br /><br />"Krefter was saying that modern european mtDNA likeky dervived from yamnaya and catacomb culture groups ; in large part".<br /><br />His opinion. What is clear is that Corded Ware has a tendency towards Yamna and that such is a likely vehicle of part of the European Ma-1 tendency anomaly (rel. to neolithic and some epipaleolithic people) and detected already in Lazaridis 2014. However it's probable that Motala-like affinity is also responsible of the other half or so. Finally there's a factor of noise (uncertainty) in all these measures that, coupled with the lack of sufficient ancient samples for most regions, makes measuring ancestry fractions almost impossible. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-54779782407829563352015-03-04T23:11:00.809+01:002015-03-04T23:11:00.809+01:00Thanks
I meant "compared to steppe sites &qu...Thanks <br />I meant "compared to steppe sites "<br />Krefter was saying that modern european mtDNA likeky dervived from yamnaya and catacomb culture groups ; in large partAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12259212254098264600noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-1252787958977578732015-03-04T16:59:30.422+01:002015-03-04T16:59:30.422+01:00Some relevant ancient mtDNA studies:
→ http://forw...Some relevant ancient mtDNA studies:<br />→ http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2013/09/basque-and-other-european-origins.html (my own)<br />→ http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2014/08/chalcolithic-mtdna-from-atapuerca-still.html (a very similar pattern detected by Sánchez & Olalde)Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-66508844655007540632015-03-04T16:48:26.613+01:002015-03-04T16:48:26.613+01:00Re. the Aurignacoid expansion, this is a qualitati...Re. the Aurignacoid expansion, this is a qualitative different level than the differences between microblades, Clovis, etc. It's a whole brand new technological mode that spread from somewhere in West or Central Asia (or maybe even India but no data to support that yet) and that corresponds to the early Upper Paleolithic (i.e. the emergence of "mode 4" with stone blades of non-levalloise, i.e. not flake-based, design). It's a true "stone age revolution" in technological concepts, and also comes with needle and very likely domestic dogs. <br /><br />I use the term "Aurignacoid" (taken from the literature) to underline its similitude to mainline Aurignacian, even if most of these earliest UP techs are not "true Aurignacian" (but usually similar enough to see a shared pattern). This earliest UP spread to West Asia, Central Asia (incl. parts of Siberia), South Asia, Europe and NE Africa (LSA) very early (50-40 Ka BP, 40-30 Ka at the latest). Then a branch from Altai migrate through Mongolia and North China (and possibly nearby parts of Siberia) to the East, bringing "mode 4" to that region (since 30 Ka BP only) and founding the proto-American population. <br /><br />Some available references:<br /><br />→ Altai Aurignacian: http://www.geology.cz/sbornik/antropozoikum/no23/23-17-the%20middle%20and%20upper...pdf<br />→ Siberian early UP chronologies and proto-Americans: https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/index.php/radiocarbon/article/view/4122/3547<br />→ West Eurasian UP colonization: http://prehistorialdia.blogspot.com/2014/03/la-expansion-de-homo-sapiens-hacia.html (I thought I had made an English language synthesis of this but seems not, so you will have to use a translator or just look at the very nice maps). Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-62600795668498184542015-03-04T16:09:47.117+01:002015-03-04T16:09:47.117+01:00"The paper only says the Evenk mtDNA is A2, b..."The paper only says the Evenk mtDNA is A2, but yes I think its safe to assume it is A2a."<br /><br />I think it's safe to assume that it is NOT A2a, why would it be?<br /><br />"We're talking migration events that are at least 14,000 years old"<br /><br />Only for the Amerind bloc (rather 17 Ka old according to the latest data, older dates like a Brazilian 22 Ka one are still not regarded "credible" but the ones from SW USA and the Andean area are indeed quite credible and strongly support a barely post-LGM expansion in America from Beringia. <br /><br />However the Na-Dene migration should be much much much more recent. Late Holocene even!<br /><br />" One thing to keep in mind though is that while the Algonquian language expanded recently, the distinctive Algonquian DNA did not - its expansion occurred close to the same time as the other main migration."<br /><br />If you trust molecular-clock-o-logy only. I just do not, unless very well done, what is the exception and not the rule. What "distinctive" marker are you thinking of anyhow?<br /><br />"Kets are actually less close to Ma-1 than any population in North or South America."<br /><br />You may be right. They are still the most relevant Eurasian population, having more Ma1 affinity than Inuits, never mind Russians and Uralics. Naukans do not beat them at all, check fig. 23, please. They do beat Selkups and Khanty, so they are close enough to the Ket level.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-2802684052056198562015-03-04T15:49:49.754+01:002015-03-04T15:49:49.754+01:00Not sure about all the details of your question (w...Not sure about all the details of your question (what's "the profile vis-a-vis that from steppe sites") but on the notion of "hyper-modern": it's an mtDNA concept. Neolithic populations from Germany and other places had way too low levels of mtDNA H (~25%), what is clearly not "modern". On the other hand Neolithic Portugal (Chandler 2005) had LOTS of H, making it "hyper-modern" (i.e. a possible source for the correction towards more H up to the 40-60% modern levels), while Paternabidea (Neolithic Navarre) had a quite modern-like mtDNA pool (and roughly the same can be said of Neolithic and Chalcolithic "Basques" when pooled, but not so much when considered site by site, with the exception of Paternabidea). <br /><br />The new Cuyavian late LBK (not really Lengyel, which only reached to Southern Poland but something related anyhow) shows similar "hyper-modern" (very high) levels of mtDNA H (7/11, assuming we trust the HVS-1 assignment, which is not good enough for European mtDNA unless further tests are made) and suggests another possible source of mtDNA pool "modernization" (increase of H, decrease of "Neolithic" lineages like T, W, K1, N1a, etc.) That's about it. <br /><br />My only other remark was that it's risky to rely too much on samples from only certain areas (particularly NE Germany has been hyped quite a bit), while much of ancient Europe remains unsampled. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-75330331659334359522015-03-04T04:57:05.043+01:002015-03-04T04:57:05.043+01:00Maju
U made some interesting comments elsehwere ...Maju <br />U made some interesting comments elsehwere on the lengyel data . Care to elaborate on the profile vis-a-vis that from steppe sites; and what u meant by "hyper-modern" ?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12259212254098264600noreply@blogger.com