tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post1129430672288215929..comments2024-03-09T15:46:44.638+01:00Comments on For what they were... we are: Negligible genetic flow in Slavic expansion to the BalcansMajuhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-33908039081476803622016-10-04T09:50:53.413+02:002016-10-04T09:50:53.413+02:00I would say better example would be about special ...I would say better example would be about special relation between Russia and Ukraine. It's far more illustrative.MAGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02143590656119449334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-23188092576435589812016-06-10T01:54:10.893+02:002016-06-10T01:54:10.893+02:00IMO there's no reason at all to relate Caucasu...IMO there's no reason at all to relate Caucasus with Basques, etc. In fact in all Europe-only PCAs they are exactly opposite at the 2nd dimension and in West Eursian PCAs this can be also appreciated although in a more oblique line. <br /><br />Caucaso-Iberianism is a compulsive-obsessive disorder of sorts. Some people display truly unhealthy obsession with the Caucasus that makes no sense to my mind. <br /><br />The name Iberia for the antique Caucasus country is not related in any way that we know to rivers. From Wikipedia:<br /><br /><i>The provenance of the name "Iberia" is unclear. One theory on the etymology of the name Iberia, proposed by Giorgi Melikishvili, was that it was derived from the contemporary Armenian designation for Georgia, Virkʿ (Armenian: Վիրք, and Ivirkʿ [Իվիրք] and Iverkʿ [Իվերք]), which itself was connected to the word Sver (or Svir), the Kartvelian designation for Georgians. (...) According to another theory, it is derived from a Colchian word, "Imer", meaning "country on the other side of the mountain", that is of the Likhi Range, which divided Colchis and Iberia from each other.</i>Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-86994368375449309442016-06-10T01:34:26.270+02:002016-06-10T01:34:26.270+02:00Reading something about the Pelasgos, I found this...Reading something about the Pelasgos, I found this quote:<br /><br />"Algunos investigadores georgianos (incluyendo a M. G. Tseretheli, R. V. Gordeziani, M. Abdushelishvili y Zviad Gamsakhurdia) relacionan el pelasgo con las culturas íberas-caucásicas del Cáucaso prehistóricos, que los griegos conocían como Cólquida."<br />Perhaps this is the link between Eastern and Western Iberia that raises much curiosity. I followed a link to read about Colquida, and I found out that the capital was Ea and actually they have a ski resort called Gudauri. I have read that Ibero and Basque are somewhat related and share some vocabulary.<br />Funny coincidences, with the river Iber in the Balkans, Ilion in Anatolia, the kingdom of Urartu between eastern Iberia and Anatolia<br />There are footprints here and there of some relation lost in a sea of modern indoeuropean languages.<br />olgahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15329956983115577489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-71909006181294360722016-06-10T01:08:06.188+02:002016-06-10T01:08:06.188+02:00Basque is just the last survivor of a once much la...Basque is just the last survivor of a once much larger family, let's call it Vasconic (following Vennemann in the nomenclature although not necessarily in all the details of his theory), which included at least ancient Iberian and Paleo-Sardinian (and probably many others, based on substrate evidence like what Vennemann discusses or what we have commented here). <br /><br />So Sardinians have a different genetic makeup but linguistically they used to be cousins. Why? Because it's not a mere blanket and homogeneous replacement but rather a complex partial replacement, with waves forth and back at some moments and also many and diverse localized founder effects. A complex mosaic but with ultimately a single generic origin in the Aegean Neolithic, where the ancestor of those languages (proto-Vasconic) was once spoken. <br /><br />Mutatis mutandi is a bit like Latin America: Spanish or European ancestry varies a lot but Spanish (or the closely related Portuguese) dialects are spoken everywhere. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-2419099523534048332016-06-10T00:36:24.157+02:002016-06-10T00:36:24.157+02:00Perhaps the root of Bihotz and some other words a...Perhaps the root of Bihotz and some other words are as old as the Neolithic.....<br />"However we do see a strong influence of Greek Neolithic and particularly the oldest sample, Rev5, in SW Europe, very especially among Basques, who seem to have only very minor Anatolian Neolithic ancestry, unlike everyone else relevant here".olgahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15329956983115577489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-26696022279793765352016-06-09T18:47:21.161+02:002016-06-09T18:47:21.161+02:00Thinking a bit more on the bios-bizi-bihotz (somet...Thinking a bit more on the bios-bizi-bihotz (sometimes boz, from which: poz: happiness) issue. <br /><br />I understand that the Greek word "bios", can be scrapped of at least the -s ending, and maybe the -os, because that's declension, like the Latin -us. So probably the root word is *bi-. <br /><br />That's exactly what we seem to find in Basque, where bizi can be "butchered" as: "bi-iz-i", where bi- is the root just mentioned, iz- is the root of izan (to be, i.e. na-iz: I am, etc.) and -i is a verbal infinitive ending (-i, -n or -tu). Bihotz is unclear what it means, but I will guess here that it was originally *bioz: bi-o-z = made of (-z) my (-o-) "bi". Note: the -o ending is or rather was proximate, today it's only used in plural: biok (we two, bi = 2), lagunok (the friends, I included), euskaldunok (we the Basque people) but can also be used in the sense of "this we care about specially". <br /><br />This last is a bit conjectural but let's move on. What called my attention after thinking on all this is that "bi" is also, as you may have noticed above: "two" (and is probably at the root of Latin bi-, although some dispute it and argue it's a natural evolution of "duos", p.e. duonus > bonus, duellum > bellum, but this could equally be blamed to Vasconic substrate influence). So is there a relationship between "*bi-" (life) and "bi" (two)? I'm going to throw a speculative thought here: there is. <br /><br />The reasoning would be that the ancient neolithic religion or cosmology implied a pair of gods (yin-yang style) bringing life to existence. In the preserved Basque mythology these are Mari (she) and Sugar/Sugoi/Maju (he), in Greek oldest cosmogony they could be Gaia and Eros, in Hindu basic layer they are Sakhti and Shiva and in Taoism they are the principles of Yin and Yang. At least the Basque and Indian versions are clearly fertility cults that idealize sex or certain type of sex at least, which the Dual God does and the mortals too. So there may well be a notion in which life (*bi-) and two (bi) are connected conceptually. <br /><br />And I leave, or live, it at that...Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-68945997074958463342016-06-09T17:33:06.380+02:002016-06-09T17:33:06.380+02:00"relation between Biotz (Heart) and Bios in G..."relation between Biotz (Heart) and Bios in Greek (Life)"<br /><br />Good one! There's also "bizi" (life / to live), which is surely cognate of "bi(h)otz". I would indeed agree that "bios" looks Vasconic.<br /><br />Another interesting ones may be:<br /><br />oikos/ekos (house) - etxe (house)<br />oxi (no) - ez (no) - Greek's negative and affirmative particle are very much against the Indoeuropean rule, the affirmative one (yes) being "ne", which is "no" in Slavic and close to the "no" word in other IE languages as well. <br /><br />"Don't you think that the fact of Rh (-)could have produced a sort of cultural barrier that prevented marriages or interfere with more that one child?"<br /><br />The effect is very minor: only 13% of all Rh+ children from Rh- mothers (and never the first one) is affected. It could act as a very lesser barrier against "pure" Rh+ men having children with Rh- women, but the effect is too small to matter. <br /><br />Also Basques are just like 25% Rh- (approx., can't recall exact figure), highest on Earth but still a minority. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-67101765583923436352016-06-09T03:55:34.271+02:002016-06-09T03:55:34.271+02:00Thanks Maju for your answer. I have another ques...Thanks Maju for your answer. I have another question, the relation between Biotz (Heart) and Bios in Greek (Life) Both are very old and conservative words that are not easily changed or adopted from another language.<br />Another aspect that I would like to exchange ideas is about the basque isolation in respect to the steppe invations Don't you think that the fact of Rh (-)could have produced a sort of cultural barrier that prevented marriages or interfere with more that one child? <br />I am 0 Rh negative and I had to be treated with some drug because my second child was A Rh positive, and probably I could have had a reaction from the inmune system that could have prevented the success of future pregnancies.<br />Sometimes biological facts are neglected, like the fact that neanderthal/sapiens mixed babies could have not been able to be born from sapiens mothers, because the size of the head or the shoulders.<br />In my croatian in law family there was a case of a brother in law married with a non croatian lady, that one of the siblings had a very difficult birth that caused him a life damage due to the fact that the head and shoulders could not go through the birth channel. That's why I mentioned the size of the croatians in relation with the size of the iberians.<br />So biology could have prevented the natural tendency of humans to mingle in old times.<br />Now, there are all kind of facilities, but until the twenty century the rate of mortality in child birth was enormous.<br />olgahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15329956983115577489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-26839039486730470192016-06-02T21:57:13.960+02:002016-06-02T21:57:13.960+02:00The argi - argos/argyros/argentum relation is alre...The argi - argos/argyros/argentum relation is already in my mind: ἀργός means "white" in Greek, from which ἄργυρος and Lat. argentum, both meaning "silver". They seem to have several Indoeuropean cognates, not just in Celtic (which might be influenced by Vasconic) but also in Indo-Iranian, so, of there is a relation, it's probably between proto-Vasconic and proto-IE, of which there are many. On the other hand English "silver" is almost certainly from Vasconic, cf. Basque "zilar" and Iberian "seldar", again not the only likely such Vasconic word, but in this case it should be from substrate. <br /><br />As for "zuri", I'm generally of the opinion that it is related to "zur" (wood), i.e. it would be "the color of wood", which is normally creamy whiteish, or maybe from "hezur" (bone, possibly related somehow to Gr. ὀστέον and Lat. "os", again possibly via proto-IE because there are Indo-Aryan cognates). The ancient Basque color system probably only included four colors: <br />→ zuri: white<br />→ bel(tz): black; rel. bele: crow, raven.<br />→ urdin: blue-green-grey (today just "blue"); rel. ur: water (plausible original meaning: "watery", "water-like").<br />→ gorri: red-orange-brown, yellow even (today just "red"); rel. "gor": deaf, "gorbizi": irreducible, "gordin": raw, brutish, cruel. In this sense Dr. Roslyn Frank has argued that it is surely related to English "gore", meaning originally the idea of "raw meat/flesh", "bloody" maybe. So "gore" (Middle English: "gor", "gore", "gorre") would be yet another Vasconic substrate word in English (do not confuse with Serbo-Croat "gore", which as we just discussed is probably Vasconic but from a different root: goi, gora). <br /><br />Surya is clearly cognate of Lat. Sol and Germ. Sun, Iranian Xor and Greek Helios. It's an Indoeuropean word, whose reconstructed form was plausibly *sóh₂wl̥, so this one I'd say it's a false cognate, a mere coincidence.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-36263137506538145872016-06-01T07:18:40.722+02:002016-06-01T07:18:40.722+02:00An old joke from Tito´s times said that the inhabi...An old joke from Tito´s times said that the inhabitants from Montenegro were the tallest because there neck grew longer looking to Belgrade expecting to find a suitable job in the government.<br />I have another question for you. In euskera, the word "zuri" means "white.<br />I read that "surya" in Vedic has something to do with the light of the sun<br />And "argi", light , reminds me the root of "argentun".<br /><br /><br /> <br />olgahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15329956983115577489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-51573353836394022222016-05-31T23:01:08.116+02:002016-05-31T23:01:08.116+02:00I don't have a complete opinion on the origin ...I don't have a complete opinion on the origin of South Slavs or more in general Balcanic peoples (where the genetic differences between language areas are not really meaningful, at least in most cases). My old understanding is that they are probably descendants, mainly, of Neolithic peoples, what would explain why patrilineages E1b (Albanians and Greeks notably) and I2 (Serbo-Croats particularly) expanded with Cardium Pottery Neolithic in Westward direction (with a close relative dominant in Sardinia and offshoots around the Pyrenees). However the issue of I2 is very complex and I don't have an up-to-date opinion right now, but my default hypothesis is that it expanded from Ukraine (where it seems most diverse) to the Balcans in the Epipaleolithic and was picked up by the Early European Farmers, particularly in their maritime/southern route. <br /><br />About "gora" (mountain) and "gore" (up, upwards), these are words that truly startled me when I visited the recently broken up Yugoslavia in the early 90s. I remember that we made jokes about how "innegotiable" those countries were as "part of the greater Basque Country" each time we found a toponym or word that sounded Vasconic, be it in Italy or in the Balcans. However the words have troubled me since then: "gora" is pan-slavic, hence it should have been picked further north, maybe when the Indoeuropeans invaded Central Europe (previously Danubian Neolithic and such, which may well have been Vasconic speakers), plausibly at the Carpathian mountains. However "gore" (up, upwards) is exclusively Serbo-Croat and means exactly the same as Basque "gora". <br /><br />The question is that the word looks like having a Basque etymology: goi-ra, where goi=up, high, and -ra=to, towards. Other common declensions of goi are goien (highest), goiko (from the high) goia (the high [place], cf. Goya the painter, who had Basque ancestry), goiri (high or upper town), etc. So IMO "gore" is a Vasconic remnant, probably picked by Indoeuropeans in the context of the Vucedol culture and retained to this day. There are surely others but I don't know that much about your country and region. In any case the Ibar river in Kosovo is one of those toponyms that have no other reasonable explanation (ibar = river bank, sometimes valley, compare with Iber-us → Ebro, Tiber ← t-Iber? and Hevros, Greek name of the Maritza). Ibar has again a very clear Basque etymology: ibai = river, ibi = ford, in Aragon ibon = mountain lake, so speculatively *ib- = river or fresh water body). <br /><br />As for Montenegro having the tallest people, maybe, but don't tell that to my friend Stasha Zajovic, because she's quite petite. There's always an exception, you know. :)Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-9304821851307775762016-05-31T22:27:09.203+02:002016-05-31T22:27:09.203+02:00Yeah, I know. But I am not a pan slavic fun, or a...Yeah, I know. But I am not a pan slavic fun, or anythig of the sort and my observations are personal, not from the books. I have two sons and a daughter that are half croats, and lots of in-laws from the island of Brac.<br />What is your genetic conclusion about south slavs, besides the fact they are no specially related with north-east or west slavs? <br />By the way, you know that Montenegro´s name, where according the Balkan tradition are the tallest people, is Crna Gora, that means Black Mountain.<br />You know "mountain, altitude, high",came to my mind when I was going to say farewell in your "Gora Euskadi" olgahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15329956983115577489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-53254777238998170442016-05-29T19:59:29.759+02:002016-05-29T19:59:29.759+02:00What he/she means is that pan-Slavism was an ideol...What he/she means is that pan-Slavism was an ideology exploited by Russia, which tried to play the role of "paladin" of Slavic peoples, which in that time were often subjugated to other nations, including Russia itself but otherwise non-Slavic: Germany, Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire. Some of that still remains for example in the special relation between Serbia and Russia. And while other "Slavists" may not be sympathetic to Russia, the core corpus of beliefs is the same: one macro-nation expanding from a single urheimat, something that is probably real at the ethno-linguistic level but no at all at the deeper genetic level instead. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-52045765219842430642016-05-29T19:53:36.491+02:002016-05-29T19:53:36.491+02:00...
"According to the cluster, Croatians sha......<br /><br />"According to the cluster, Croatians share genes with their neighbors, and not exactly with north slavs and this information confirms the fact that they only share a language, and this fact is not contradictory with the history. They share genes with the Bulgars, that is a turquic people that was slavizased, and the Romanians were the Goths remained for a while and perhaps for more than a while".<br /><br />This is a very Nordicist interpretation of reality. Goths probably did not leave any significant genetic legacy, being as they were a conqueror elite. The Bulgarians are mostly a deeply rooted Balcanic people. They surely have some steppe element but from Ezero/Thracians mostly however and saying that they were "Turkic" just because ancient Bulgar elites probably were (a Hunnic offshoot surely) is as meaningless and fantasious as imagining that the Franks shaped the genetics of France or the Visigoths those of Iberia. The very fact that they had to abandon their Turkic language in favor of a Slavic one clearly indicates that, even within the conqueror elites, Slavs were dominant in numbers by a lot. <br /><br />But Slavs characterized themselves for being very inclusive of other peoples, which seems to have been their key to success, in almost a Roman/Latin way: expansion by assimilation. Actually I'd say this is pretty much applicable to every ethnic success: assimilation and mestizaje wins, apartheid and segregation fails. Of course you also need to win in the battlefield, but for that you need troops and supplies and some loyalty from the peasants themselves (>90% of the population before the Industrial Revolution), so assimilating the conquered ones, rather than feeding their hatred via segregation and meaningless genocide is what works. And, for what we know, Slavs were very good at that integrative way of expansion - nothing to do with the recent genocides. <br /><br />"Eskarrik asko eta ondo bizi."<br /><br />I see that you have learned some Basque. It's "ondo izan" (be well) but otherwise it is perfect. Congratulations.<br /><br />Sadly I have forgotten almost all my Serbocroat by now. All I remember is "jedam pivo" and "nasdravia" (although this one is probably rather Serbian than Croat). XDMajuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-64593734557022404812016-05-29T19:38:47.350+02:002016-05-29T19:38:47.350+02:00"They grow rather late, usually being smaller..."They grow rather late, usually being smaller than Spaniards until sixteen when they start growing".<br /><br />That's an interesting issue and it may be largely genetic, but ill-studied, AFAIK. In my family, for instance, we seem to almost stop growing around 14 y.o., so for example I was in the tall group when I was a kid but now I'm average. <br /><br />"Usually they are blonds, but have brown eyes and the skin color is slightly yellowish".<br /><br />I've met many black haired Croats and Bosnians. The "yellowish" (vs. "reddish") skin color seems to have a very patchy non-structure in Europe (I made some self-research years ago and could not draw any conclusion) and should be related genetically to red-hair genetics, which also regulate pheomelanin (the red pigment) in the skin (I did spot "reddish" skin phenotype in areas where red hair is common, typically NW Europe: Scotland, Ireland, NW Germany, but very patchy at a continental scale anyhow). I'm telling from memory because I've lost the data but I can tell you that there is no obvious geographic pattern of red-yellow skin color tendency.<br /><br />"... and faces with high cheek bones, cut in a peculiar way, that gives them a sort of fierce look. The brow is broad and slightly in angle. If you look at the picture of Marechal Tito you will see a good example of the face". <br /><br />I think I know what you mean: it's not universal at all but it is a very typical Balcanic face, which I mostly associate with Romanians ironically (at least one of my Romanian neighbors, a woman, has it). The most characteristic version is broad-faced and robust but the traits are also found in more narrow-faced "Dinarid" types, more "gracile", often (the other Romanian neighbor I have, for example). I think this is a very typical Balcanic kind of face, although not the only one. And, within the Balcans, it may be more common towards the North.<br /><br />"Actually there is a theory about the origins of the Croatians or HRVT, as a tribe of Iranian origin that migrated to west acquiring a Slavic language".<br /><br />Call it a neomyth. There is no evidence for such origins in genetics or any other evidence. Iranians proper do not show any of the traits you have mentioned (and anyhow they seem to be pretty much local West Asian aborigines based on genetics).<br /><br />"... their own name HRVTI is related to a Persian divinity".<br /><br />I guess you mean VRITRA, which is in fact an Indian god, and a pre-IE one judging on the fact that is a dragon or serpent. It's probably just a coincidence of sound (which are much more common than most people realize). <br /><br />Said that there was almost for sure many interactions between Indo-Iranians and Balto-Slavs in Eastern Europe, what resulted for example in the satem trait and other cultural elements. But I don't think we can overestimate their impact. In almost all linguistic trees Balto-Slavic is part of a Western Indoeuropean grouping, which also includes Germanic (sometimes associated to Albanian/Illyrian), Celtic and Italic (sometimes Italo-Celtic), which is probably a clade that formed with the Corded Ware expansion. <br /><br />...Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-84302880051524412772016-05-29T19:10:11.226+02:002016-05-29T19:10:11.226+02:00It is true that Croatians and other West Balcan pe...It is true that Croatians and other West Balcan peoples are quite tall. But that seems to be part of a wider European pattern that has nothing to do with Slavs. See this entry:<br /><br />→ http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-height-of-europeans-and-myth-of.html<br /><br />Most people doesn't seem to know that Greeks are quite tall, while Brits or Finns are rather short instead. Poles, who might be identified (at least for the data I managed in that entry, which did not include Ucranians) with proto-Slavs are quite average in size for both genders. <br /><br />There seems to be a V-shaped or rhombe-shaped area of tallness in Europe between the Netherlands and Lithuania (but with Poles as exception) and with a less well defined southern vortex, which can be placed either in the Adriatic or in Greece (where women are in the tallest third, although men are rather average). From experience Serbs and often Romanians too are also quite tall but their data is not in that set, Bulgarians instead are the shortest of my sample for both genders, if we exclude Turks. <br /><br />If we exclude Bulgaria and Turkey, the shortest men seem to have a southern tendency (Spain and Greece are exceptional in this somewhat, and even more so Croatia and Slovenia) BUT the shortest women are to the North: in Britain and Finland. So overall there is a tendency to relative shortness outside the V-shaped region I mentioned before. It has no obvious relation with any macro-ethnic or (paleo-)historical setting I can think of: height just peaks around Germany but not in any too simple or obvious pattern. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-69712260409905115542016-05-29T05:56:32.874+02:002016-05-29T05:56:32.874+02:00Hi Maju: I followed your chat about Croatians. In...Hi Maju: I followed your chat about Croatians. In the matter of size, I can assure you, there is nothing like that in Western Europe. Girls reach 1.80 easily, and men fluctuate between 1.85 and 1.95 with a very well developed muscular structure and a very heavy bone structure that makes them natural athletes.<br />They grow rather late, usually being smaller than Spaniards until sixteen when they start growing.<br />Usually they are blonds, but have brown eyes and the skin color is slightly yellowish. They have hairy bodies and faces with high cheek bones, cut in a peculiar way, that gives them a sort of fierce look. The brow is broad and slightly in angle. If you look at the picture of Marechal Tito you will see a good example of the face. Some of them have square faces, like some Russians with small noses, but there are also aquiline noses.<br />Actually there is a theory about the origins of the Croatians or HRVT, as a tribe of Iranian origin that migrated to west acquiring a Slavic language. There are words and folk traditions that can be identify in this way. For example the word for God is Bog, the name of HVAR, the island in the Adriatic Coast, is Sun and their own name HRVTI is related to a Persian divinity.<br />Perhaps an oriental horde composed by Yaziges (Alans) Avars and Goths, the common mixture of the steppes dominated the Romanized Tracians and Illyrians in different waves. The regular history says that the Slavic speaking Hrvati , a supposedly pacific people that was enslaved by Avars with whom they mixed, infiltrated the territories of Illyria actually known as Croatia and occupied the coast and the islands, and were ruled by a Magyar aristocracy since the year 1000 until 1917, when the Kingdom of Yugoslavija was born.<br />According to the cluster, Croatians share genes with their neighbors, and not exactly with north slavs and this information confirms the fact that they only share a language, and this fact is not contradictory with the history. They share genes with the Bulgars, that is a turquic people that was slavizased, and the Romanians were the Goths remained for a while and perhaps for more than a while. And about Hungary according to its history, from the year 1000, their kings brought people from different places in Europe in order to civilize the country, in a way that the peasants descend from the ancestral settlers, the urban population was mostly Jewish, German, French, Italian ,Serb and Greek, Armenian and the aristocracy was Magyar, German and Jewish. All of them turned their original last names to Magyar sounding last names during de 19 century. And this fact confuses all the samples, because last names mean nothing there.<br />Sometimes history helps to understand.<br />Eskarrik asko eta ondo bizi.<br />olgahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15329956983115577489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-17187425869358508342016-05-29T03:28:04.611+02:002016-05-29T03:28:04.611+02:00Mother in croatian is MAJKO and I don´t recalled t...Mother in croatian is MAJKO and I don´t recalled to have been taught of anything by Moscow.olgahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15329956983115577489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-19018357291725646042016-05-27T13:49:24.274+02:002016-05-27T13:49:24.274+02:00Based on what data? If such semi-mythical origins ...Based on what data? If such semi-mythical origins are undetectable in Hungarians, why would they be in Croats? It's a bit like looking for the signature of the Visigoths or the Moors in Spain: not at all easy to find. There may be something but it's so tiny an subtle that we can really ignore it altogether for most purposes.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-56672959275612266072016-05-27T13:46:14.770+02:002016-05-27T13:46:14.770+02:00Indeed. If the "true slavic" ancestry in...Indeed. If the "true slavic" ancestry in South Slavs is negligible, the same applies for Greeks, etc. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-66808536311657032912016-05-27T02:22:03.882+02:002016-05-27T02:22:03.882+02:00What about the Avar and Alan admixture in Croatia?...What about the Avar and Alan admixture in Croatia? Remember that Hungarians ruled over Croatians for a thousand years.olgahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15329956983115577489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-87029480360399945732016-05-26T02:02:55.623+02:002016-05-26T02:02:55.623+02:00This would seem (I think) to make significant Slav...This would seem (I think) to make significant Slavic Admixture in (certain regional subgroups of) Greeks (more southern still than Balkan "Slavs") even less likely (or at least substantially lower than thought).Jm8https://www.blogger.com/profile/15508192996701397187noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-35847677491173165102016-05-25T12:57:59.787+02:002016-05-25T12:57:59.787+02:00A possible, improvised, interpretation would be th...A possible, improvised, interpretation would be that Poland was intensely colonized by early Indoeuropeans from Eastern Europe and then Russia, etc. was back-colonized from Poland with the Corded Ware expansion. Corded Ware did not affect any of the areas south of the Carpathians (Bohemia did but only in the final Westward expansion), but this one was the area occupied by Vucedol culture, which is clearly intrusive but more suddenly so and not exactly the same thing. So probably, while some areas within Vucedol or Western Corded Ware got a huge input of Indoeuropean males, they may have retained a much larger fraction of pre-IE females, what would be congruent with graph C (mtDNA), where the populations you mention do again cluster together (plus some Polish subpops. too).Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-18306682636587239252016-05-25T12:51:11.058+02:002016-05-25T12:51:11.058+02:00It is autosomal DNA what you complain about and, i...It is autosomal DNA what you complain about and, instead, it is Y-DNA what you use as argument. In the Y-DNA graph (B) the populations do behave as you say, but in the autosomal plot (A) they do not, so there is quite apparently a contrast. This may well be because Poland is basically part of the North European plain, more exposed to interaction with Eastern Europe, etc., while the old Czechoslovakia is more secluded instead, largely part of the Mid-Danube basin (Bohemia is not but it has a very especial geography of its own). It is not just South Slavs they cluster with but also non-slavic populations of the same geography, like Hungarians and Romanians, with a general tendency towards Southern and Western Europe. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-88882217990266955422016-05-24T22:50:47.635+02:002016-05-24T22:50:47.635+02:00I don't understand how they make two distinct ...I don't understand how they make two distinct groups if we look at autosomal it seems Czechs and Slovaks are genetically closer to Croatians and Slovenes rather than poles and Ukrainians. Something I don't exactly think is true. Also I don't understand how Czech y DNA clusters so close to german when percentages of R1a in those countries is significantly different...something's are just puzzeling to me Lion hearthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10073407344473087433noreply@blogger.com