tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post7907325264960774430..comments2024-03-09T15:46:44.638+01:00Comments on For what they were... we are: Intriguing North African Neanderthal admixture paperMajuhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-21345781130438155212012-10-22T01:57:34.232+02:002012-10-22T01:57:34.232+02:00The specific reference you had in mind is importan...The specific reference you had in mind is important because I can now (and only now) address the specifics. Dienekes found that La Braña composite (in principle pre-Neolithic) is:<br /><br />For his K7b set: 9.3% African and 90.7% Atlantic_Baltic.<br /><br />Which are hight in the Atlantic-Baltic component in <a href="https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadHZ6SHpiLTNTa3lsUmZJY2pQblVRR2c#gid=0" rel="nofollow">his K7b zombie set</a>? Essentially Western and Northern Europeans, from Basques to Finns (>75%) but also at lower levels Spaniards, French, etc. It's a very common dominant component today, so, judging on it alone, most modern European blood would be Paleolithic. <br /><br />For his K12b set: 45% Atlantic_Med, 41.6% North_European, 10.3% East_African, 1% Sub_Saharan<br /><br />Who are nearly 50-50 Atlantic-Med and North-European in <a rel="nofollow">his K12b zombie analysis</a>? The same ones very roughly (but less so those from NE Europe, which are dominated in the past as today by the North-European component), for example Argyll, British, CEU, Cornwall, French (but not North Basque), etc. French are maybe the ones who compare best with La Braña, because they retain the slight dominance of the AM over the NE component.<br /><br />"and mesolithics seem to be more 'Asian' too"<br /><br />African actually but only La Braña, and that is probably a West Iberian specificity, whose remains we still find in that area precisely, all the way between Asturias to Western Andalusia (IMO a Solutrean founder effect in relation with the genesis of Oranian in North Africa).<br /><br />"That's true too. SW European components have been noticed in La Braña specimens".<br /><br />Most important. <br /><br />Of course it could still be that La Braña an their flexed burials are very early Neolithics (misclassification?) and that would change some things. But it would probably also be the case with any new aDNA research: there are too few studied specimens to know with any certainty as of now. <br /><br />Also let's not forget that the "Mesolithic" specimens from Gotland are in fact regressive Neolithic ones. They may have more Paleolithic blood but only because they come ultimately from the Eastern European Neolithic, which looks rooted in the local Paleolithic and not a foreign arrival in any way, but not because they represent direct Paleolithic Continuity in Sweden. <br /><br />Of all aDNA specimens considered by Dienekes in his comparisons, none is 100% sure Paleolithic but only La Braña has real chances of being truly Epipaleolithic. All the rest, including the Gotland samples, are fully Neolithic in chronology and roots, even if they lived more of fishing than farming. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-2552315935255433642012-10-21T22:20:46.696+02:002012-10-21T22:20:46.696+02:00"Re. the second part, there is absolutely no ..."Re. the second part, there is absolutely no evidence of your statement that reads "northern Europeans are more similar to mesolithic hunter-gatherers". That's mostly wishful thinking speculation by some people. I'll be glad to discuss the particulars if you can point me to specific contextualized claims,"<br /><br />It seems like (according to some ADMIXTURE experiments) hunter gatherers show a relatively high Altantic-baltic component which is slighty higher in northern Europe. Also, it seems too that some other components appeared in neolithic farmers and are more common among southern Europeans. It has been noted that northern Euros are somewhat more "Asian" than southerners, and mesolithics seem to be more 'Asian' too. Mesolithics from Iberia show high levels of the "northern European" component, even higher than present day people living in Iberia. I'm not sure, though, and more ancient DNA is needed to address this issue.<br /><br />"To this moment I remain persuaded of SW European specific autosomal components being at least as "aboriginal" as NE European ones (what is coherent with Neolithic mtDNA apparent replacement fists, and later semi-vanishing, advancing between them in the Balcano-Danabian wedge). "<br /><br />That's true too. SW European components have been noticed in La Braña specimens.᧞eandertalerinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12545788589913543964noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-12586312585380364772012-10-19T08:15:44.180+02:002012-10-19T08:15:44.180+02:00I did mention it here (same source, just a note). ...I did mention it <a href="http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.es/2012/02/neanderthals-crossed-sea-at-least-once.html" rel="nofollow">here</a> (same source, just a note). It is the first clear evidence of Neanderthals as boat-users ("mariners" sounds a bit too exaggerated) but we have no evidence of the crossing the sea elsewhere. <br /><br />The islands were rather close to the mainland and one of the three mentioned (Lefkada) was not even an island yet (it was a peninsula until a canal was dug in antiquity). But it clearly indicates that they had the capacity, like ourselves, to use rafts or boats for short distances. <br /><br />A very different thing is that they used that capacity at all in other cases. For example there is no evidence of crossing of Gibraltar Strait before the Solutrean period, except in times long before Neanderthals, when Homo erectus/ergaster probably crossed <a href="http://leherensuge.blogspot.com.es/2009/09/acheulean-much-older-than-thought-in.html" rel="nofollow">from Africa to Europe</a> bringing Acheulean industry with them. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-4079133663414276172012-10-19T07:21:40.875+02:002012-10-19T07:21:40.875+02:00Here is an interesting article about Neanderthals ...Here is an interesting article about Neanderthals as ancient mariners. Perhaps this would impact some current theories.<br /><a href="http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21328544.800-neanderthals-were-ancient-mariners.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21328544.800-neanderthals-were-ancient-mariners.html</a>Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16233810798371621146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-48369566688940951522012-10-19T01:28:42.135+02:002012-10-19T01:28:42.135+02:00The Mediterranean Sea has not dried up in the Huma...The Mediterranean Sea has not dried up in the Human Age. Gibraltar Strait was closed last time (Messinian salinity crisis) c. 6-5.3 million years ago, long before Homo habilis. People may have crossed Gibraltar Strait, which was quite narrow in the Ice Ages, but always on boat or raft. <br /><br />"The strange bit is how much Neanderthal is in East Asians".<br /><br />How much the study seems to find (not the same as "is"). It's so strange that I remain highly skeptic.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-64188656605917953802012-10-18T23:50:04.036+02:002012-10-18T23:50:04.036+02:00What is interesting to think about is that there w...What is interesting to think about is that there were extensive river systems in the Sahara sporadically during past ice ages. The Mediterranean also has virtually dried up in the past, maybe several times. Both of these conditions would seem to make a path from sub-Sahara Africa to North Africa and from North Africa to Iberia (and the rest of Europa).<br /><br />The strange bit is how much Neanderthal is in East Asians. That is astounding. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16233810798371621146noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-1702661949732155102012-10-18T21:58:58.017+02:002012-10-18T21:58:58.017+02:00Re. the first pert of your comment, Neanderthaleri...Re. the first pert of your comment, Neanderthalerin, implies an analysis of the methodology that, sincerely, I do not feel able to do at this point, possibly never. Someone with better grasp of the statistical-mathematical aspects implicated should do instead. <br /><br />Re. the second part, there is absolutely no evidence of your statement that reads "northern Europeans are more similar to mesolithic hunter-gatherers". That's mostly wishful thinking speculation by some people. I'll be glad to discuss the particulars if you can point me to specific contextualized claims, because there is probably very little facts and lots of over-interpretation in this. To this moment I remain persuaded of SW European specific autosomal components being at least as "aboriginal" as NE European ones (what is coherent with Neolithic mtDNA apparent replacement fists, and later semi-vanishing, advancing between them in the Balcano-Danabian wedge). <br /><br />However, considering the many doubts that the East Asian figures cause, I don't feel at all comfortable with the rest of the results, so I would not draw conclusions from them unless supported with other studies also. <br /><br />"One wonders if scientists really read and document themselves about what's going on in their field before writing the conclusions".<br /><br />I'd say so, up to a point, but still they manage to be incredibly sloppy or confusing sometimes. <br />Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-84585525391722496112012-10-18T17:22:00.933+02:002012-10-18T17:22:00.933+02:00Very good post, congratulations.
First, I'd l...Very good post, congratulations.<br /><br />First, I'd like to say: that's completely crazy! It just contradicts other "neandertal admixture estimations" we know so far. <br /><br />For example, the admixture percentages found in this study, in the first one (Green et al. 2010), in John Hawks' blog and finally in the "Denisovan" one (and others I've not mentioned) completely contradict each other.<br /><br />Which one is true or closer to the truth? Why do they say North Africans share more alleles with neandertals when East Asians show a much greater amount of them? How can Indians show much lower levels than other non-africans? <br /><br />Second: I just don't understand that, if northern Europeans are more similar to mesolithic hunter-gatherers (according some recent studies with ancient DNA) and show some "Asian" admixture as well, how can they be less neandertal than North Africans, who are admixed with tropical Africans?<br /><br />I find too many contradictions between these studies, and there are many populations missing there, they just picked up a dozen, in my opinion it's not enough to see patterns of such an ancient admixture (if there are any). I'm not going to believe any of them.<br /><br />Just another one to put in the list! Very interesting but frustrating at the same time. One wonders if scientists really read and document themselves about what's going on in their field before writing the conclusions.<br /><br />᧞eandertalerinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12545788589913543964noreply@blogger.com