tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post5954084503220277350..comments2024-03-09T15:46:44.638+01:00Comments on For what they were... we are: The patrilineage R1b-DF27 in North IberiaMajuhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comBlogger77125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-28118357803172700362018-02-13T06:30:18.571+01:002018-02-13T06:30:18.571+01:00That was a quite interesting video, thank you, The...That was a quite interesting video, thank you, Theasparagus.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-92073870184088699162018-02-12T10:57:57.879+01:002018-02-12T10:57:57.879+01:00Maritme trade already went on a noteworthy scale d...Maritme trade already went on a noteworthy scale during the Neolithic era, take for instance the obsidian trade, obsidian from Sardinia was found all over the Western Mediterranean and especially in France and according to the newest studies it was traded directly from Sardinia to Southern France in certain periods, this video explains why pretty well:<br /><br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f4IdasDkK8<br /><br />"Obsidian sourcing studies have been conducted in the central Mediterranean for more than 50 years. Detailed studies have been done on the geological sources on four Italian islands, and many analytical methods have been used to successfully distinguish between them. The ability to conduct analyses using those minimally (LA-ICP-MS) or totally (XRF, pXRF) non-destructive to artifacts has led to >10,000 analyses just in the last decade. Along with the ability to assign artifacts to specific geological subsources, and an increased number of studies of techno-typology, this has allowed interpretations to be made about source access and territorial control, craft specialization and the chaîne opératoire, as well as the modes, frequency, and directions of movement and how that varied spacially and temporally. Obsidian especially from Lipari and from Monte Arci in Sardinia traveled hundreds of kilometers on a regular basis starting in the Early Neolithic. By the Late Neolithic, in some areas there was selection of specific obsidian sources and subsources, and differences in production methods and tool typology. Obsidian distribution and usage in the central Mediterranean continued over four-and-one-half millennia, in many areas well into the Bronze Age. There is much more still to do integrating these different studies, especially use-wear studies, along with those of lithic and other materials that also played a role in prehistoric transport and trade systems."<br /><br />The same gors for the obsidian from Lipari, which was the other big Obsidian exporter in the Western Mediterranean. And Obsidian from Pantelleria was exploited and traded frequently too despite the island not being settled, mean they were sailing back and forth rather frequently.<br /><br />Obsidian from Sardinia was found as far as Catalonia and the Balearic islands<br />Theasparagushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01922308779454100850noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-79982376994684374922017-08-08T09:05:34.069+02:002017-08-08T09:05:34.069+02:00Thank you, Olga.
My two cents: it has some inter...Thank you, Olga. <br /><br />My two cents: it has some interest in spite of obviation of Gascons, which AFAIK are closely related to Aragonese and Catalan Y-DNA (at least <a href="http://leherensuge.blogspot.com/2008/09/pyrenean-y-dna.html" rel="nofollow">within I2</a>, in which they, or at least Aranese, which are Gascons, appeared closer to them than to Basques), in spite that it does not explore other R1b sublineages than DF27 (for example they say that DF27 is most frequent among Basques but it's not clear if that's just because all R1b distributed that way or because other R1b lineages are also present in other Iberian populations) and in spite of their use of TRMCA to draw conclusions, which I won't take at face value in any case. <br /><br />Re. the differences between Basque and Aragonese-Catalan Y-DNA it is very interesting that the dual pattern seems to repeat itself in I2 and R1b, indicating that both lineages had the same basic local patterns of expansion. <br /><br />Re. TRMCA, I always add 50-100% because that's what it's needed to fit the real calibration points in the out-of-Africa migration and the Pan-Homo split (geneticists tend to use scholastic references from 15 years ago, which are in turn based on 20th century archaeological/paleontological ideas now clearly obsolete). So their figures of 4000 years ago, would become 6-8000 years ago. 7000 years ago is date of arrival of Neolithic to the Basque Country, which in some sites (Paternabidea) appears continuous to present day. For the Mediterranean and Ebro Valley parts of Iberia that would be c. 7500, what is also in the bracket, but they may have experienced secondary demographic changes soon afterwards judging on ancient mtDNA (in Catalonia and also other areas).<br /><br />So I would say that this distribution or much of it should respond to Neolithic founder effects, be them primary or secondary. However if we play conservative and accept the given 4000 years date, that is still a clearly pre-Indoeuropean date (Urnfields only arrive around 1300 or 1100 BCE, 1000 years too late) and corresponds well with Bell Beaker chronology, which is also the context in which we find the earliest known R1b-S116 in Central and NW Europe. <br /><br />So in any case it's clear that it is a pre-Indoeuropean lineage and sublineages and that should be also the case for all R1b-S116 at the very least (we'll see what happens with U106 but my bet is for Denmark in the context of Funnelbeaker as origin). Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-81136433244226913262017-08-08T04:13:26.221+02:002017-08-08T04:13:26.221+02:00Hi Maju: I have something for you.
https://www.na...Hi Maju: I have something for you.<br /><br />https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-07710-x<br /><br />With my best wishes.olgahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15329956983115577489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-66202930079650762582017-05-27T16:56:54.133+02:002017-05-27T16:56:54.133+02:00Muchas gracias, Olga.Muchas gracias, Olga.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-85559146396263184982017-05-27T02:22:19.125+02:002017-05-27T02:22:19.125+02:00Tienes razón, descifrar el pasado es un hobby para...Tienes razón, descifrar el pasado es un hobby para diletantes, lo difícil es hacerle frente al presente y mantener el humor. Yo no hablo euskera, soy chilena, descendiente de vizcaínos emigrados en varias olas, y agradezco mucho el tiempo que le has dedicado a estos temas como un aporte gratuito al conocimiento.<br />Quería que supieras que aprecio tus esfuerzos y dedicación y si no te veo aquí te veré en tus otros blogs políticos.<br />Y el día que hayan suficientes datos para verificar su tesis acerca de R1b DF-27, me tomaré una copa virtual a tu salud.olgahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15329956983115577489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-18509904590097347062017-05-26T15:05:07.130+02:002017-05-26T15:05:07.130+02:00Soy muy consciente de la relevancia de este blog p...Soy muy consciente de la relevancia de este blog pero la Internet me satura hoy día y la vida real es simplemente deprimente (no ya la mía, que también, sino la general). Ha llegado un momento en que para mí el pasado, más o menos descifrado, importa poco, lo que importa si acaso es hacer algo por impedir que los locos capitalistas destruyan el planeta y la humanidad. <br /><br />Para poder mantener este blog tendría que cobrar por hacerlo, convertir lo que es un trabajo gratuito en un trabajo asalariado, donde el salario suplementaría a la motivación interior, sobre todo en horas bajas (porque hacer un buen artículo puede llevar un montón de horas entre lectura, consideración o análisis previo, edición de gráficos y escritura propiamente dicha, por no hablar de atender comentarios y correos relacionados, depende), y eso no simplemente va a ocurrir. Es la tragedia del Capitalismo: el trabajo útil se considera inútil y el inútil y parasitario se considera respetable y está muy bien pagado.<br /><br />Bueno en cualquier caso, te puede interesar (sobre todo si puedes leer en euskera) esto: http://uztarria.eus/aktualitatea/1493997268<br /><br />En particular la tercera presentación es la de un libro sobre la conexión lingüística vasco-sarda por el filólogo Juan Martin Elexpuro, libro en el que colaboro con un artículo sobre los orígenes genéticos de las poblaciones de Europa, que también puedes leer <a href="https://bagaudaberri.wordpress.com/2016/03/09/origen-de-vascos-sardos-y-demas-europeos-segun-la-genetica-de-poblaciones/" rel="nofollow">AQUÍ</a> en su versión borrador en castellano (mi euskera es bastante mediocre, así que lo tuvo que traducir Juan Martin). <br /><br />En ese blog en castellano suelo escribir sobre todo de política pero de vez en cuando meto algo sobre antropología o genética, porque creo que es importante que al menos algo llegue a audiencias que nunca leen en inglés.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-30377111712358759102017-05-26T01:29:07.530+02:002017-05-26T01:29:07.530+02:00Hola Maju: Leo que planeas terminar con este Blog....Hola Maju: Leo que planeas terminar con este Blog. Quiero decirte que pienso que tendrás tus razones para hacerlo, que no te alcanza el tiempo etc etc. Pero creo que sería una gran pérdida para las personas como yo que estamos muy interesadas en reconstruir, aunque sea en teoría la historia del poblamiento de Europa Occidental centrada especialmente en el grupo humano que hoy conocemos como vascos.<br />Al respecto, tu bien sabes, que han circulado las más disparatadas historias, sin ninguna base real; algunas políticamente interesadas a favor, muchas en contra, tratando de bajarle el perfil a la identidad vasca. Y que la mitología barata es un hobby con muchos seguidores.<br />Planteamientos informados y respetuosos como el tuyo no abundan, y tienes bien claro que la identidad actual de los vascos no depende de lo que sucedió hace 7000 años, o de si el fenómeno del euskera, vine del Paleolítico o del Neolítico. Pero aún así, existe curiosidad por recrear teorías plausibles de lo que pudo haber sucedido de un modo serio, contextuado en los descubrimientos arqueológicos, en estudios filológicos y antropológicos y aportes de la historia.<br />No he visto en Internet nadie fuera de ti, que represente a los vascos y su historia genética, y creo que habiendo llegado a estas alturas del partido donde aparecen muchísimos datos dispersos que necesitan una interpretación seria, sería una pena perder tu interpretación.<br />Sldos,<br />Olga<br />olgahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15329956983115577489noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-58964902530895528202017-05-25T17:17:07.191+02:002017-05-25T17:17:07.191+02:00Wait, hold on! This is not about "blackmailin...Wait, hold on! This is not about "blackmailing" anyone or pushing anything nor "punishing" anyone, this is about ME and MY very real inability to keep the blog (and possibly many other things in my life) rolling. It has nothing to do with discussions and disagreements, just with my clearly decreased ability to focus, follow up the latest developments and produce. Anyone who follows this blog KNOWS that I've been struggling to keep up, that post frequency has decreased in the last years and that I haven't written a word (other than in comments and email, always as replies) in the last many months (since February!)<br /><br />I may also decide to just officially "hibernate" it. I haven't decided yet but it'd be about the same. <br /><br />"You are a child of the 1960s, or you seem to be."<br /><br />I was born in 1968, what means that I identify best with the 80s as "my generation" or "decade", because that's when I was a teenager and became a young adult. I have no memories of the 60s (of course not) and my memories of the 70s and even earliest 80s are fragmentary and blurry. I "belong" psycho-emotionally to the second Punk wave and also the (derived) Hardcore one (already getting well into the 90s in fact and also part of my youth). <br /><br />"The winners are uninteresting, we want to know about the losers!"<br /><br />I don't believe in those categories: I think it's a "loser" or "sucker" attitude to try to be a "winner": there is no "victory", we all die in the end. This has nothing to do with generations, but rather with the philosophy of life and, relatedly, with political stand. Incidentally the leftist "losers" are on average significantly smarter than the rightist "winners", what must mean something, probably a greater capacity of seeing the whole, the overall picture, of not running like mad after the materialist bait like a lab rat. Incidentally dolphins, a species with an intelligence directly comparable to ours, are not domesticable (even if they are amiable) because they eventually just do whatever they want: they are too smart to just obey all the time. Incidentally I suspect that, overall, hierarchical civilization may have decreased our average intelligence because smart = critical and rebellious.<br /><br />Anyway, I do appreciate what you're saying and I can only agree with your points 3 and 4, which I consider compliments, but it's NOT about what you think it is, it's about me getting older, lazier maybe, suffering the quotidian pressures of degenerate Capitalism (which stress and distract me a lot).<br /><br />As for point 5: I do not have an agenda other than truth-seeking. As Machado wrote: <br /><br />Tu verdad no, la verdad.<br />Y ven conmigo a buscarla,<br />la tuya guárdatela.<br /><br />Your truth not, truth.<br />And come with me in search for it,<br />your truth keep it for yourself.<br /><br />Also I don't think I say "stupidities" for the most part. If I would think so, I would not say them (naturally). Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-36888017780329512292017-05-25T00:02:13.528+02:002017-05-25T00:02:13.528+02:00'... so it seems coherent to give it a decent ...'... so it seems coherent to give it a decent burial.' <br />I would like to stress that it would be even more coherent to let it stand. Your take on current developments would be sorely missed if it were not there. There's no denying that holding on past the date is no use to anyone. But you're not outdated!! Just probably wrong about one or two things ... and then maybe you were right after all ... That's moral blackmail, that is! Don't punish us for not knowing what is what!<br />'Better a bad hypothesis than no hypothesis'. The Hegelian principle. Like in chess: rather a bad plan than no plan at all (Max Euwe); and also: 'the wrong way will very likely cross the right way (to Rome) at some point.<br />Maju, you swhow us something different. To guess, to hypothesize, one must be educated, versatile, well-read. You're perhaps not 'homo universalis' as such, but you're the closest specimen available on the Internet! That's point 1).<br />2) You are a child of the 1960s, or you seem to be. The 'bagauda' idea is the give-away. It belongs to the post-war response to the dominance of power-defined phenomena. The small and the fragile, the interior and the local - in short 'the special' (versus 'the universal') are worth of our attention. The winners are uninteresting, we want to know about the losers! The chosen ones (for sacrifice, obviously)! As they represent the human element ... It's not rational, I know, it's more of an emotional strain. Of course I'm not saying the Basques are losers: they won. And the Swiss, and the Dutch ... Point is who didn't? Who were lost without any trace, and who were lost with some trace somewhere out there? Futile questions in themselves, but it's the perspective I'm talking about. This perspective seems only marginally connected to the holocaust; its roots seems mostly in WW1. No use trying to explain that to the young ones!<br />3) In science we need a third person to look into things. A disinterested third party is quite essential as it forestalls a winner! A winner is the worst catastrophy for human understanding!<br />4) The voice. Maju, you have a distinctive voice. It is utterly non-offensive. You have the voice of someone who is trying to open something. You are not interested in slamming the door into anyone's understanding. Not a trace of a sneer, there's not the least interest in crushing anyone's ego. Simply because there's nothing further from your mind! There is so much comfort in that! I don't think you don't know this. But ...<br />5) ... but you have only a tiny agenda. Personal, recognisable. And therefore loveable.<br />And therefore from me, and I doubt not, many other people like me, please share your light with us, and please don't save us your stupidities. We'd like to share (to an extent!) those too! <br />Jaaphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06965988049158422688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-40014375616597910562017-05-22T12:48:17.578+02:002017-05-22T12:48:17.578+02:00@Samuel: in both cases it is SOUTH-EAST France. We...@Samuel: in both cases it is SOUTH-EAST France. We can therefore reasonably exclude this area but NOT the rest of France. In terms of ancient DNA, I have mentioned several times that there is a region (mostly blank but with some interesting data points) that shows extremely early "modernity" in the mtDNA pool, spanning at least between Paternabidea (Navarre) and Gurgy (Burgundy). Between these two data points and to the west and even northwest of them, we just do not have any data, unless if we go far north: the high-H mtDNA pool of Blätterhöhle, Westfalia (which may well be related to the origins of Michelsberg) and the also high-H mtDNA pool of Gökhem (which may well be related to the origins of Funnelbeaker). These two can't be considered "modern" (too much H) but rather "super-modern" (in contrast to "sub-modern" low H pools in most other populations). In no of these cases or any other plausibly related case we know of the Y-DNA. <br /><br />So we have a "modern" (Basque-French) area and a "super-modern" NW area (also in early Neolithic Portugal but not in the middle Neolithic anymore). So, from the viewpoint of ancient DNA, that's the area (Atlantic Neolithic) where we should look for the origins of Y-DNA R1b-Western.<br /><br />But from the viewpoint of modern DNA, the clear origin for R1b-S116 is somewhere in France, rather to the South surely. That's what mapping the phylogeny produces (in spite of not much data from France). As for U106, I can't say (not enough phylogenetic data AFAIK) but should be from somewhere in NW Europe. <br /><br />"In about 2400 BC a people carrying R1b P312 appear in Germany, South France, and Britain."<br /><br />That's because we don't have enough data from other areas only.<br /><br />"In all three locations these newcomers are 50% Yamnaya-like?"<br /><br />I already told you I find those f4 extremely BIASED, because all or most the WHG (or any other XHG) would produce Yamna affinity, as the contrast is Anatolian Neolithic (very low in Paleoeuropean ancestry). It's nothing but a fraud. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-6943727787888883842017-05-22T07:25:08.512+02:002017-05-22T07:25:08.512+02:00South France, the location Maju proposes R1b-P312,...South France, the location Maju proposes R1b-P312, has been sequenced.<br /><br />Lacen 2011. Treilles France, 3000 BC. 22 samples. All G2a and I2a1.<br />http://dx.doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1113061108<br /><br />Olalde 2017. Clos de Roque France, 4600 BC. 2 samples. Both I2a1b.<br />http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/09/135962<br /><br />In Spain and Britain we have lots of Neolithic Y DNA dating from 4000 to 2300 BC. In both regions most Y DNA is I2a or G2a. Well, Britain had 100% I2a(38 Y DNA samples!). <br /><br />In about 2400 BC a people carrying R1b P312 appear in Germany, South France, and Britain. In all three locations these newcomers are 50% Yamnaya-like? 50%!! In Britain we know they introduced R1b P312 because we literally have British genomes-Y DNA from a few hundred years before the newcomers arrived. <br /><br />Why wouldn't the same be the case in France? I just don't understand how with all of this ancient DNA documented R1b P312 coming from the NorthEast and migrating west that you guys still think somehow R1b P312 is derived from Neolithic Western Europe. Samuel Andrewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09054267559597526866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-68109500821475290052017-05-22T07:12:14.674+02:002017-05-22T07:12:14.674+02:00@Maju,
" It(R1b P312) only shows up with BB, ...@Maju,<br />" It(R1b P312) only shows up with BB, which is a very clear case of south to north expansion, not of east to west nor north to south one."<br /><br />There's no indication Iberian Bell Beaker folk contributed ancetry to NorthWestern Bell Beaker folk. <br /><br />From the abstract...<br />"we observe limited genetic affinity between Iberian and central European Beaker Complex-associated individuals, and thus exclude migration as a significant mechanism of spread between these two regions."Samuel Andrewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09054267559597526866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-54821242328426313132017-05-20T23:36:57.212+02:002017-05-20T23:36:57.212+02:00Heraus, aspaldiko! Glad to know you're still a...Heraus, aspaldiko! Glad to know you're still alive after such a long silence, really. :)<br /><br />"I don't get why previous studies in 2015 did show like near zero "Caucasian" imput into Basque people and now find such element in reasonable quantities."<br /><br />On this issue different analyses seem to produce slightly different results, although most tend to very low modern Caucasus/Central Asia component in Basques, zero even. However notice that this is CHG (high in "Basal Eurasian") as opposed to the modern Caucasus component (much lower), not sure if this may affect the result. <br /><br />In a previous comment in this entry, Olga mentioned this dental study of Bell Beaker populations: <br /><br />https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262962852_When_Beakers_Met_Bell_Beakers_An_analysis_of_dental_remains - 2011<br /><br />It suggests continuity in North Iberia, replacement (total or partial) by Iberian-like types in SE France and Switzerland. However it also finds that Czech BB peoples were continuous between Corded Ware and Unetice, particularly on the male side. If correct, Eastern Province BB peoples were Indoeuropean speakers, (most?) others were not (Vasconic presumably). Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-39045396155209805152017-05-20T14:42:27.603+02:002017-05-20T14:42:27.603+02:00I haven't checked genetic papers for years and...I haven't checked genetic papers for years and I have only watched things with much distance so I'm a bit of a beotian here.<br /><br />Nevertheless Maju's conclusion in point 7 seems very reasonable : we have to be open-minded as we lack many sources for data. The scarce sampling of modern France is a pity.<br /><br />It is very curious most people into amateur genetics don't seem to get the basics of European geography : Southern France is central to the Bell Beaker phenomenon (and to many other prehistoric cultures). A shame "my" country still sticks to its myth about indivisibility and unity which prevents researchers from properly investigating human remnants or worse which deters them from having the very idea of trying it.<br /><br />Still the Olalde paper does have a SE French sample in Provence from Beaker-associated burials. Only 4 individuals, one of them lacking the infamous steppe admixture on par with what is being observed in Iberia in those times. Something seems to be happening then.<br /><br />http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/05/09/135962.full.pdf<br /><br />About steppe admixture, I must say I don't get why previous studies in 2015 did show like near zero "Caucasian" imput into Basque people and now find such element in reasonable quantities.<br /><br />See p. 15 : http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/10/134254.full.pdf+html<br /><br />It seems like indeed something happened in Basque lands in relative recent times where steppe-admixed people penetrated modern Basque-speaking lands rather en masse unless all those ADMIXTURE results are false because of reasons unknown to me. PCA graphics also show that Basque people are somehow "deviated" towards mainstream Europeans, contrary to Sardinians who remain mainly Neolithic-like.<br /><br />I used to believe it was just a continuous renewal of local WHG admixture but it looks like it really is CHG-like in the latest studies. Who's wrong ? Who's right ?<br /><br />I cannot know for sure but it may appear the Basque language - now solidly believed to be a Neolithic language - survived amongst rather recently mixed people in modern Basque lands, full of R1b. How come ? Iberian BBs must have surely been Basco-Iberian speakers but what about other BBs who appear to be steppe-admixed ? Was the BB universe still "Neolithic-speaking" despite steppe admixture ?<br /><br />I'm bit clueless.Heraushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07032921971763481466noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-8148111614407164832017-05-20T10:32:58.060+02:002017-05-20T10:32:58.060+02:00Their logic hangs from the following burning nails...Their logic hangs from the following burning nails:<br /><br />1. Blind faith in their own groupthink (they are more than one, so they have to be right, right?) <br /><br />2. Subsuming everything to the wide category R or R1, which in their faith must have a single and simple origin, and this one must be in Siberia (however geo-phylogeny suggests Pakistan, with R1a and R1b nodes in West Asia). In their mind everything R1 and maybe even R (incl. R2) would be the "Genghis Khan lineage" of some unknown Indoeuropean Khan or founder patriarch. <br /><br />3. The "Ancient North Eurasian" (ANE), which is a confusing way-too-old-and-generic AUTOSOMAL element referenced to Glacial Maximum Mal'ta boy (near Mongolia and more closely related to Native Americans than to any West or South Eurasian), who incidentally carried a primitive form of Y-DNA R (but sufficiently derived from the upstream node to know it has no live descendants, a detail they purposely ignore). That's why they believe R "must" have spread from Siberia. <br /><br />4. A more important piece of evidence is that Yamnaya-like autosomal genetics did spread in Europe since the Chalcolithic. However many studies suggest that this spread was clinal and can be tracked via the Caucasus component, which is as close to zero as it can get in populations like Basques, which are rich in R1b-S116 (not just in absolute figures but also to some extent in diversity). But not just Basques, the Caucasus component is generally lower in West European populations dominated by R1b. So there is in fact a negative correlation between Indoeuropean "blood" (autosomal DNA) and Y-DNA R1b-Western (and also mtDNA H, blood group Rh-, a positive one with blood group B instead) but, hey, surely those expansive R1b-Indoeuropeans just somehow did the impossible, they were a breed of global super-conquerors or what, they even learned Basque and Iberian just to get us confused, smart guys those supermen of the steppes, right? Erm...<br /><br />5. Lack of aDNA evidence for many key regions and periods. This is never explicitly mentioned, of course, but in their fervor for ancient DNA they way-too-happily tend to assume that "what you see is all there is" and that's definitely not the case. <br /><br />6. Bell Beaker expanded from East to West and from North to South. Well, it didn't (exactly the opposite is true as general pattern at least) and that's why they never explicitly mention it either but have it implicit in their faulty logic anyhow. <br /><br />7. A finished model (even if totally wrong) is better than no clear model. Well, again not: that's pseudoscience. A finished model contradicted by all the evidence I can think of is as good as trash. I can produce a dozen much better finished models out of the blue (and I do sometimes) but best is to keep the mind wide open. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-7115254303381948862017-05-19T21:01:35.377+02:002017-05-19T21:01:35.377+02:00"Just accept it!!! R1b-L151 isn't native ..."Just accept it!!! R1b-L151 isn't native to Western Europe. It isn't Paleolithic, it isn't Neolithic, it arrived in the 3rd millenium BC with Yamnaya-like people who probably spoke an Indo European language."<br /><br />The Yamnaya R1b samples belong to R1b1-a1a2-a2-Z2103. The Bell Beaker samples from the contemporary Central Europe belong to R1b1-a1a2-a1a2-S116 (or R1b1-a1a2-a1a1-U106). Quite different lineages! (I am making dashes in the hapogroup signatures to make it more understandable.)<br /><br />I am baffled, how someone can come up with such a bizarre theory. They found R1b in some peripheral area of the Yamnaya culture (which was no surprise because this lineage has remained there in high frequencies until today) and 'internet geneticists' immediatelly fantasize that this fringe population somehow hid among all those R1a's in Corded Ware Central Europe and subsequently erased 90% of the West European Y haplogroup pool. (LOL)War Lordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15170292788911414015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-52628703214996823482017-05-19T20:59:09.971+02:002017-05-19T20:59:09.971+02:00This comment has been removed by the author.War Lordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15170292788911414015noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-72027119524996630152017-05-18T18:56:43.571+02:002017-05-18T18:56:43.571+02:00First of all, I'm not really paying much atten...First of all, I'm not really paying much attention, sadly enough, to the latest developments. I may even decide to close this blog by early summer (not happy about that but I haven't almost posted in the last many months, I'm only reading somewhat casually what you guys bring here or to my email, so it seems coherent to give it a decent burial). <br /><br />Second, Capra: thanks for highlighting the Cuyavia GA data, it seems to confirm that I was wrong about GA-CW continuity, partial or otherwise. Therefore we should probably consider CW as Catacomb-derived. Still, where did they get their R1a from? That question seems to remain open, right?<br /><br />Third, Samuel: I beg you not to throw gratuitous insults, I don't want to ban anyone. We can have a respectful discussion about data and what it means and agree to disagree if we can't agree. <br /><br />All I can find in Davidski's entry (and several related other entries) is that CW was c. 100% R1a (mostly within Z282, the clade which appears to expand from Poland or West Ukraine) and that NW Bell Beaker were c. 100% R1b (almost all S116, the SW European clade with apparent origin in Southern France). Talking about L151 seems a bit irrelevant, because we know that the expansions happened downstream of that node: at the S116 and U106 ones, and even downstream of S116 probably too (the BB samples would seem all to POTENTIALLY be within M529, the "Irish" clade), so these NW BB people should be associated with the R1b-M529 expansion from Western France, right? (I know you'll reply "wrong" but it seems right to me, really). <br /><br />"Just accept it!!!"<br /><br />Why? Your Yamnaya and "Yamnaya-like" CW people do not have any L151. It only shows up with BB, which is a very clear case of south to north expansion, not of east to west nor north to south one. As Bob mentions below, there are major gaps in our pre-BB knowledge (and also in our geographical knowledge). You guys are trying to force-feed a prejudiced wishful thinking idea that just doesn't make sense and does not fit with the data. <br /><br />If anyone has "cognitive dissonance" here, that would be you and your Ultra-Indoeuropeanist wild dog pack. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-39376252410779537412017-05-18T18:27:41.377+02:002017-05-18T18:27:41.377+02:00That's an excellent point, Rob. What happened ...That's an excellent point, Rob. What happened in the Michelsberg/SOM period (one that can also have caused a mass replacement from North to South, judging on the archaeology), or in the Artenacian period in Western France and Belgium (in this case a large replacement may have happened from south to north instead and might be related to R1b-S116). Both pre-date Bell Beaker and even Corded Ware in the case of Michelsberg, so they are important question marks in wait for an answer.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-89885540424448371322017-05-18T10:14:16.283+02:002017-05-18T10:14:16.283+02:00In any case Maju, further to what has been said ab...In any case Maju, further to what has been said above, the sampling ages preclude final conclusions. All the data from central Europe and Britain are skewed toward 3500 - 2900 BC and 2400-1900 BC (BB period). With little or zero sequences from 3000 -2500 BC, no wonder it seems like a "mass replacement' with the appearance of BB. <br />Certianly, it seems demographic & economic shifts were occurring in the 3000- 2500 BC period, which could account for what we're seeingRobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07166839601638241857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-75403215245744163942017-05-17T21:44:52.120+02:002017-05-17T21:44:52.120+02:00Maju you make me laugh. You obviously suffer from ...Maju you make me laugh. You obviously suffer from cognitive dissonance. Maybe this post by Davidski will help open your eyes.<br /><br />http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/05/late-pie-ground-zero-now-obvious.html<br /><br />Just accept it!!! R1b-L151 isn't native to Western Europe. It isn't Paleolithic, it isn't Neolithic, it arrived in the 3rd millenium BC with Yamnaya-like people who probably spoke an Indo European language. <br /><br />The same is true for R1a M417 and Eastern Europe. It arrived in the 3rd millenium BC with Yamnaya-like people who probably spoke an Indo European language. <br /><br />And guess what the same thing will be found in South Asia. R1a M417 arrived with Yamnaya-like people in the Bronze age. Samuel Andrewshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09054267559597526866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-79192963429168235332017-05-17T20:41:41.770+02:002017-05-17T20:41:41.770+02:00Forgot to add that the GA are slightly EHG shifted...Forgot to add that the GA are slightly EHG shifted relative to Iberia Chalcolithic and German Middle Neolithic samples, as is not surprising considering their location. They have more WHG than the latter, about as much as the former. capra internetensishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15951755327460295070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-90227739563170074582017-05-17T20:01:14.585+02:002017-05-17T20:01:14.585+02:00Did you see the new Globular Amphora samples in th...Did you see the new Globular Amphora samples in the Southeast Europe paper, Maju? (It is full of good stuff.) There are 6 from Poland (from Kierzkowo, actually in Kuyavia or very near), and 3 from Ukraine. In the autosome they are the typical EEF with elevated WHG. Two thirds of them are male, all I2, and those with better coverage prove to be under I2a2a1b-CTS10057. We find some quite common subclades under that branch of I2 today.<br /><br />The Neolithic British also had I2 clades common in Britain today - the paternal ancestors of non-R1 Europeans are beginning to turn up, we have J2b now and more E-L618. I1 is still missing, maybe gathering amber and hunting seals in the Baltic still.capra internetensishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15951755327460295070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-58746823479405113302017-05-17T18:52:46.540+02:002017-05-17T18:52:46.540+02:00In any case, thank you for all the materials for r...In any case, thank you for all the materials for reading, Samuel.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.com