tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post3090414127427330344..comments2024-03-09T15:46:44.638+01:00Comments on For what they were... we are: Ancient mtDNA from a Megalithic tomb near AtapuercaMajuhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-63055557666466548952016-11-26T20:54:11.514+01:002016-11-26T20:54:11.514+01:00You can pretty much rest sure that it coalesced in...You can pretty much rest sure that it coalesced in West Asia and spread in the Neolithic to Europe. This is the case quite apparently for the following matrilineages now more or less common in Europe: J, T, X2, W, N1, K, U3, etc. On the other hand we know that at least the following existed in Europe before the Neolithic: H (not necessarily all subclades), U5, U4, U2, U8(xK) and U6 (in spite of being today mostly North African). HV0 and its descendant V also look Paleoeuropean but unconfirmed so far by aDNA and in any case it clearly expanded within Neolithic. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-45612686069748313642016-11-26T09:58:28.117+01:002016-11-26T09:58:28.117+01:00Interesting.... I'm T2a1b. I googled my haplog...Interesting.... I'm T2a1b. I googled my haplogroup and ran into this. This haplotype seems to be everywhere. I've seen it in the Middle East to South America to Northern Europe. Moshae Musichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12062783741955755969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-23715871944139967652016-11-26T09:54:40.928+01:002016-11-26T09:54:40.928+01:00Interesting.... I'm T2a1b. I googled my haplog...Interesting.... I'm T2a1b. I googled my haplogroup and ran into this. This haplotype seems to be everywhere. I've seen it in the Middle East to South America to Northern Europe. Moshae Musichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12062783741955755969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-69969153987583850332016-03-16T21:59:07.214+01:002016-03-16T21:59:07.214+01:00G2a is not that rare in Iberia: one of every 20 me...G2a is not that rare in Iberia: one of every 20 men carries it. And <b>in North Portugal it is the second most common lineage (12%)</b>, just after R1b (47%). In fact North Portugal is the most likely place to find a Y-DNA G lineage of all mainland Iberia, just after Ibiza (13%), and followed by Castilla-La Mancha (10%), South Portugal (9%), etc. See: <a href="http://www.cell.com/AJHG/fulltext/S0002-9297%2808%2900592-2" rel="nofollow">Adams 2008</a>. It would be rare if you'd be Basque, Aragonese, Minorcan or Gascon, but elsewhere it is documented at significant frequencies, averaging 5%.<br /><br />Anyhow, it's just one line: by autosomal DNA, what really matters in the end, you are probably most closely related to your geographical neighbors (unless you know of recent immigrant origins that you have never mentioned). In fact it's almost a statement of "North Portugueseness". <br /><br />But, yeah, if you want to track the arrival of that lineage to your area, it probably happened in the Neolithic and most likely (my best educated guess) did so via Italy (that's the link to Ötzi: jumping more than 7,000 years back in time!) and South Portugal. You can also track, if you wish, ancestry by that line to Georgia, Turkey and Galilee (maybe even Jesus of Nazareth was your distant "cousin", sure: why not?, if not patrilineal for sure by some other line) and then back to the oldest branch to diverge from the mainline Eurasian patrilineage CF after C - because that is what G is, although the haplogroup probably coalesced much later and we know nothing between the OoA and the founder effect in West Asia probably with the Upper Paleolithic. <br /><br />But before your mind explodes, relax: you are for sure more closely related to me than to Ötzi, he is just too old and also he's from another distinct region of Europe. In fact, I'm likely to be a more direct relative of Ötzi (not by patrilineage but by another line) because I have recent ancestry from the Veneto (my grandfather comes from that area and we can track his ancestors, who are also mine, to the 15th century Ferrara). <br /><br />So relax: it's just Y-DNA. I know that you're excited but, as "expert" I must throw a jar of cold water: every European, say Gimbutas and Zilhao for example, shares a recent ancestor from the time of Colombus and De Gama. And that also happens worldwide in a slightly deeper time-frame, say Charlemagne's time. So, well, Ötzi is just too old to matter at the personal level. <br /><br />Only if you over-emphasize the patrilineage you can say what you say, but I just cannot share that predilection: every line of ancestry weights roughly the same and when we go two centuries back in time it becomes too blurry to matter. That's a reason why I don't personally practice nor recommend personal genetics, except for the research of recent ancestry (adopted people in search of their biological roots, paternity cases and such). <br /><br />Another thing is collective genetics: that part is indeed very interesting and informative. But at the personal level, my opinion is that, generally, it is a waste of time and money. <br /><br />Citing Winona Ryder's character in "Night on Earth": "As Popeye says: I am who I am". No genealogical research will change that, not for me and not for you either. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-61399072045259481952016-03-16T12:30:13.328+01:002016-03-16T12:30:13.328+01:00Hi L, well here it is my friend! I'm confirmed...Hi L, well here it is my friend! I'm confirmed, I belong to haplogroup G L91!! Otzi is my actual genetic relative!! My whole way of thinking just got turned upside down!As I always thought I would belong to R1b, since the majority of Portuguese in my region in northern Portugal are R1b. <br />Don't know if I should be excited or dumbfounded.<br /> Gundisaluus Menendizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07644859121599123998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-20418552673735367622016-02-26T17:09:13.443+01:002016-02-26T17:09:13.443+01:00Well, thank you very much Menendiz. :)Well, thank you very much Menendiz. :)Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-86040795974529164532016-02-26T17:06:51.914+01:002016-02-26T17:06:51.914+01:00Hi L,I sent you a donation, go get your new glasse...Hi L,I sent you a donation, go get your new glasses and whatever else you can spend the rest on, cheers friend, your time is valuable, so I just wanted to thank you for your time. saludos de um Portugues. You don't have to post this comment keep it private if you'd like, up to you. thanks again.Gundisaluus Menendizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07644859121599123998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-90323865212173122672016-02-26T15:22:54.452+01:002016-02-26T15:22:54.452+01:00As for your doubts...
1. Almost certainly you are...As for your doubts...<br /><br />1. Almost certainly you are G2a: not only is, by far, the most common G subclade in Europe but also your quasi-matches are often enough within that category (P15 and descendants). <br /><br />To test or not to test for G2a and other downstream markers is your decision. I don't know how much it costs nor how much extra info you can get from it. The main use may be to discard less likely lineages like Jewish G1 or other possible (but again unlikely) lines of remote ancestry (read for details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G-M201). Personally I think that the most likely meaning of your results is that your very remote patrilineal ancestor arrived to Iberia in the Neolithic (some 7500 years ago) with Cardium Pottery culture but maybe you can get more precise info if you knew your exact subclade. So, if you are truly interested and willing to spend your money and time in finding out all you can, then you should test for all downstream markers possible, as SNPs are much more precise (yes/no answers) than STR matches (of merely approximative value).<br /><br />2. You can perfectly test for mtDNA yourself: you should have the same ones as your mother (unless you are unknowingly adopted but that's another kind of investigation). MtDNA evolves very very slowly, so the lineages should be exactly the same unless Fortuna is being extremely capricious and giving you a most unlikely mutation your mother doesn't yet have. This is a "privilege" we men have: we carry both lineages, even if we only transmit the Y-DNA one, if you were a woman trying to find out your Y-DNA roots, you would have to ask your father or brother to get tested instead. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-81810787102415700472016-02-26T15:05:58.002+01:002016-02-26T15:05:58.002+01:00Well, thank for your offer: it's really genero...Well, thank for your offer: it's really generous. But I have not the slightest curiosity about my particular Y-DNA, mtDNA or other genetic data. My interest in population genetics is for what it can help us to understand paleohistory in the collective aspect of it, not my own personal genealogy, which anyhow, I know pretty well as far as it matters. Also I am of the strong opinion that, even if we are because our ancestors, we are not them but unique selves. And I like it that way because, to be honest, I don't have good relation with my known ancestors, too conservative (often even fascist) for my taste. The "ancestor" I like the most is not my direct relative but husband of my aunt, almost all the rest just suck. <br /><br />Anyhow donations are always welcome. But I will surely spend them in much more important matters for me like dentist, a new pair of glasses, buying a bed, clothes... and getting myself motivated to keep blogging.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-83656223400443687272016-02-26T12:10:27.181+01:002016-02-26T12:10:27.181+01:00"have you even tested for G2a?"
No not ..."have you even tested for G2a?" <br />No not yet.<br /><br />Here's what it say's.<br /><br />exact match <br />G-M201 Italy 1<br /> <br />Genetic distance 1 step<br /><br />Haplogroup Country Count<br /><br />G-CTS4803 Netherlands 1<br />G-L140 Macedonia 1<br />G-M201 Italy 1<br />G-M201 Netherlands 1<br />G-M201 Russian Federation 3<br />G-M201 Saudi Arabia 1<br />G-M201 Spain 2<br />G-M201 Ukraine 1<br />G-P15 Portugal 1<br />G-P15 United Kingdom 1<br />G-PF6858 Macedonia 1<br />G-U1 Italy 1<br />G-Z26414 Switzerland 1<br />I-M253 Denmark 1<br />I-M253 United Kingdom 1<br /><br />Maju, what would you suggest? I want to take my mtDNA test, should I go directly to my mother? or should I take it myself?<br />And have you ever taken your Ydna test?<br />if not I could give you a full donation for your test, since you posted times are rough for you.Gundisaluus Menendizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07644859121599123998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-22266872437543939212016-02-25T15:43:27.090+01:002016-02-25T15:43:27.090+01:00One of the things you have to understand is that w...One of the things you have to understand is that what matters is SNP-testing, any STR coincidences you may have with people in other haplogroups are just that: coincidences. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-86753433612999201672016-02-25T15:41:53.505+01:002016-02-25T15:41:53.505+01:00It's just the Y-DNA and anyhow, have you even ...It's just the Y-DNA and anyhow, have you even tested for G2a? Most likely you are G2a, and that is absolutely normal in Europe. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-1169013047230209332016-02-24T17:51:57.975+01:002016-02-24T17:51:57.975+01:00Hi L, it seems I'm genetically very rare at le...Hi L, it seems I'm genetically very rare at least as far as I'm concerned, they haven't even grouped me yet. they only found one identical match on my twelve marker, but none on my 25 and 37 markers. Also as I was looking through my Y-dna haplogroup origins 14 of them are G's, but there's two of them, that are labeled "I M-253" one from Denmark and one UK. This is just getting more and more confusing....Gundisaluus Menendizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07644859121599123998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-70249581865044635852016-02-23T00:15:16.539+01:002016-02-23T00:15:16.539+01:00That distribution gives the impression of a Balcan...That distribution gives the impression of a Balcanic and a West European distribution, without any relevance for Italy, so it's possible that your Italian "relative" is the one more isolated, and hence maybe your particular lineage originated in Iberia or otherwise Western Europe. But extremely tentative anyhow.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-29740581488363251422016-02-21T20:14:00.912+01:002016-02-21T20:14:00.912+01:00Just mind boggling to me, I either thought I would...Just mind boggling to me, I either thought I would of been R1b or E1b1b, but instead I turn out to be G, just in f**** credable. <br /><br />"to make better sense you may want to consider where are the other related lineages"<br /><br />1 Portugal<br />1 Spain<br />1 England<br />1 Switzerland <br />1 Belgium<br />1 Netherlands<br />1 Bulgaria<br />1 Ukraine<br />1 Macedonia<br /><br />Gundisaluus Menendizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07644859121599123998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-1196312381479147122016-02-21T17:49:33.127+01:002016-02-21T17:49:33.127+01:00It could also be the other way around: that the Ca...It could also be the other way around: that the Capuan lineage has origins where you're from (not sure where exactly but I recall you are Iberian), to make better sense you may want to consider where are the other related lineages, those one-step-removed. Also the fact that you have some STR markers specific to your line probably means that the relation with your Capuan "relative" is rather old (how much, I wouldn't be able to say).<br /><br />"I am very surprised that I don't match the majority of modern Iberians". <br /><br />Well, you should not. It's not a rare lineage in Iberia at all, and used to be even more common, at least in some areas in ancient times (Neolithic, etc.) Which specific lineage you carry is, from our perspective, random, it could perfectly be something even rarer. Autosomally however, regardless of patrilineage, you should be very similar to your geographic neighbors - but that's another story. <br /><br />"I think personally, the woman holds the key to most of our diversity in phenotypes".<br /><br />In our individual genomes neither does: as you go back in the genealogy, in time, you realize that your haploid lineages mean very little in the wider picture: it's 100% re. your parents, but 50% of your grandparents legacy, 25% of your great-grandparents, 12.5% of your great-great-grandparents, etc. A couple of centuries ago it just represents a tiny percent, 500 years ago it's absolutely negligible (unless your ancestors were unusually endogamous). <br /><br />Another thing is when looking at whole populations, then you may be approximately right but it's just a rule of thumb, a tendency, and there is no strict rule that really applies. For example there was years ago a study on a Colombian port town, where it became apparent that successive waves of Spanish males have made much more impact than the still very dominant Native American matrilineage, whose related autosomal legacy was diluted over and over through the centuries. It may be somewhat exceptional but nonetheless important in order to keep in mind that there's no absolute rule on this.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-69435787297325571412016-02-21T14:26:44.510+01:002016-02-21T14:26:44.510+01:00Yea I already read the wikipedia source, but it ju...Yea I already read the wikipedia source, but it just confused me even more. I am very surprised that I don't match the majority of modern Iberians, I am totally exotic looking in every aspect of the meaning Spaniard. I think it's because of my mother's side of the family. This is why I think personally, the woman holds the key to most of our diversity in phenotypes. But this is my own opinion.Gundisaluus Menendizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07644859121599123998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-87146487291126805352016-02-21T14:21:31.147+01:002016-02-21T14:21:31.147+01:00Hi Maju, thank you so much for your prompt reply, ...Hi Maju, thank you so much for your prompt reply, I was almost speechless when I wrote to you, because I got my results like five minutes before I turned to you. It say's my place of origin is Italy, because they found only one identical match in Capua, and everyone else is "one step"away from me. They only have one identical match on my 12 Y-STR values, they found no matches on my 25 and 37 Y-STR values.<br /><br />"Do you know if you have been tested for downstream markers?"<br />I don't know, how would I find that out?Gundisaluus Menendizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07644859121599123998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-16071704061244492372016-02-21T12:18:04.145+01:002016-02-21T12:18:04.145+01:00Also, Iberian Y-DNA frequencies (Adams 2008): http...Also, Iberian Y-DNA frequencies (Adams 2008): http://www.cell.com/AJHG/fulltext/S0002-9297%2808%2900592-2<br /><br />G makes up 5% on average but significantly more for Portuguese, Manchegos and Ibicencos.Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-54258141172818182122016-02-21T12:14:18.835+01:002016-02-21T12:14:18.835+01:00G-M201 is just G (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_...G-M201 is just G (http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpG.html). Do you know if you have been tested for downstream markers? The most normal thing for non-Caucasus Europeans is to belong to G2a, which is the best documented lineage arrived in the Neolithic from West Asia (along with E1b-V13 and maybe others).<br /><br />Read Wikipedia anyhow: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G-M201Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-9609318955393178962016-02-20T14:48:34.418+01:002016-02-20T14:48:34.418+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Gundisaluus Menendizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07644859121599123998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-6892610908173672172016-02-20T14:47:53.357+01:002016-02-20T14:47:53.357+01:00Maju, I need your help, I just got my Ydna results...Maju, I need your help, I just got my Ydna results from Family tree, my haplogroup is G-M201 what does this mean???Gundisaluus Menendizhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07644859121599123998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-23681990792773819022016-02-07T21:52:27.929+01:002016-02-07T21:52:27.929+01:00Of course: lialdamizDELETETHIS@gmail.com (delete t...Of course: lialdamizDELETETHIS@gmail.com (delete the capitalized segment, it's for spam protection). Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-47651700970937010762016-02-07T20:30:30.782+01:002016-02-07T20:30:30.782+01:00Maju, sorry to ask, but do you have email? Or bett...Maju, sorry to ask, but do you have email? Or better said first, can I send you a personal message?<br /><br />Thanks!Geog Marinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15324907372468732650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3023805782808412230.post-83483809509942363922016-01-29T22:36:25.413+01:002016-01-29T22:36:25.413+01:00BTW, I just updated the link to Chandler et al. in...BTW, I just updated the link to <a href="http://www.bristol.ac.uk/archanth/staff/zilhao/dna2005.pdf" rel="nofollow">Chandler et al.</a> in that old entry, as the old one was dead. Thankfully, Zilhao still keeps it in his portfolio. Majuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12369840391933337204noreply@blogger.com